Clio rally car

[sam JFM]

What video set up are you using?

 

[.J.a.m.e.s.]

Love the seats mate

 

[Andrewclio]

What video set up are you using?

Tbh I'm not completely sure, it's a friend of mine who does all the incar footage for me, his YouTube channel here http://m.youtube.com/user/Sparcoxs?desktop_uri=/user/Sparcoxs
I think he uses the gopro2 as he thinks it better than the newer 3, but don't quote me on that because I haven't go a clue

 

[sam JFM]

Tbh I'm not completely sure, it's a friend of mine who does all the incar footage for me, his YouTube channel here http://m.youtube.com/user/Sparcoxs?desktop_uri=/user/Sparcoxs
I think he uses the gopro2 as he thinks it better than the newer 3, but don't quote me on that because I haven't go a clue

Cool so it's a go pro camera, what about audio is the camera linked to your intercom?

 

[Andrewclio]

Cool so it's a go pro camera, what about audio is the camera linked to your intercom?

Ye he just runs a auxiliary audio cable running straight from the intercom which is a peltor to the camera
Also has a external record button which he puts up on the cage, which is handy, I just have to remember to turn it on before I start the stage

 

[Andrewclio]

Little bit of an update- finally sorted the misfire we had at the rally.
Turned out to be a knackered fuel pump which in turn had destroyed the Injectors, when we removed the fuel pump there was quite a few metal filings in the tank.

When removing the pump I also noticed that the regulator was removed and blanked off! Is there any advantages to not a running a regulator? It's a genuine group n pump/sender bought from rsport, was thinking could this be the cause of the pump breaking? To much pressure?

We also noticed it was running lean so on the safe side we also changed the lambda sensor and changed all the gaskets on the inlet and exhaust manifolds (most likely the fuel pump causing this) but it does idle much smoother now.

Was hoping to be out in pembrey on the Feb 9th but going to put it on hold and get the front arches tubbed and then some much needed testing in llandow and have a play around with the setups

 

[ian-speedy]

I'm doing pembrey next week , but first event in the Impreza , I'm out next in the Clio on Epynt beginning of march , got a new front cross member , rad and bumper that needs fitting after the last pembrey , oops !!

 

[Andrewclio]

I'm doing pembrey next week , but first event in the Impreza , I'm out next in the Clio on Epynt beginning of march , got a new front cross member , rad and bumper that needs fitting after the last pembrey , oops !!

Nice! I'll have to pop down Sunday if the weather is not to bad! Going to be very wet down there!

 

[Andrewclio]

Little update time!
Put in a late entry for the bob shaw memorial stages at talbenny airfield last Wednesday for Sunday just gone! Well what a day, the weather was amazing, started 52nd and finished 18th overall!!
First stages was just a case of getting use to the car and see how it felt, done some adjustments to the dampers the day before and added a little more camber from the last rally so wasn't a great time, was understeering a lot but still managed to climd a few places! Came in for service and lowered the bump on the damper by 2 clicks and this really helped, car felt much better.
As the day went on started to feel more comfortable in car maybe a bit to much in places as a few arguments with a lorry tyre lefts us with no bumper lol

Got to service and the crew where excellent, they recovered the bumper which was in 2 pieces and got it all back together. The radiator was also pushed back but luckily no damage or leaks, so a handful of cable ties and a bit of duck tape and we where back out!

The afternoon stages started great with a good battle with a clio 197 which was lovely, I think there was 1 second between us at one point!trying to tell myself not to push it to hard as I need to finish, went straight out the window as soon as the stage started! Ha we then took 9 seconds advantage on one stage in the afternoon and the confidents grew and pushed on hard for the test of the day. Which lead to smashing the remained of the bumper on the last chicane of the last stage! But we finished and that's the main thing

 

[sam JFM]

Looks good Andrew!

Last time I had an argument with a lorry tyre I ended on my roof

 

[Andrewclio]

Looks good Andrew!

Last time I had an argument with a lorry tyre I ended on my roof

Thanks ye them lorry tyres are surprisingly strong lol
Tbh I think I got away with it likely, I thought the damage would of been much worse!

 

[sam JFM]

Thanks ye them lorry tyres are surprisingly strong lol
Tbh I think I got away with it likely, I thought the damage would of been much worse!

We genuinely thought "if we touch one of those we will push it out of the way"


Hell no

What's your next event?

 

[Andrewclio]

We genuinely thought "if we touch one of those we will push it out of the way"


Hell no

What's your next event?

Haha learnt fast then

I think where going to do dale stages which is the 25th of May, gives us enough time to get the car sorted, top mount bearings need changing now as there is slight play in them and of course new front bumper and headlight also noticed a slight leak from the box so going to pull that out and sort that while where at it.

Are you planning to do any events soon?

 

[Tony Hunter]

Great result.

 

[sam JFM]

Haha learnt fast then

I think where going to do dale stages which is the 25th of May, gives us enough time to get the car sorted, top mount bearings need changing now as there is slight play in them and of course new front bumper and headlight also noticed a slight leak from the box so going to pull that out and sort that while where at it.

Are you planning to do any events soon?

Hopefully mid summer caerwent in June

 

[ian-speedy]

Good result Andrew , good to speak to you on sunday , the more time you spend in the car the better the times will get , they are great little cars and perfect for these kind of stages , we were going quite well until this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es5omH2sT2E

Then he tried to blame us for turning into him , prick !

We got it back to service and re-tracked it as something is bent underneath , luckily no panel damage as he caught us on the wheel

This is a clean stage we had , only a few seconds off the fastest car

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA0yXqmipDQ

We finished up 9th overall , so not too bad seeing as we dropped a couple of minutes with the puncture

 

[Andrewclio]

Great result.

Thanks tony

 

[Andrewclio]

Hopefully mid summer caerwent in June

Nice! Not to far away then. I'd love to have a go at that one, will have to see how the car is after dale

 

[Andrewclio]

Good result Andrew , good to speak to you on sunday , the more time you spend in the car the better the times will get , they are great little cars and perfect for these kind of stages , we were going quite well until this

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Es5omH2sT2E

Then he tried to blame us for turning into him , prick !

We got it back to service and re-tracked it as something is bent underneath , luckily no panel damage as he caught us on the wheel

This is a clean stage we had , only a few seconds off the fastest car

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eA0yXqmipDQ

We finished up 9th overall , so not too bad seeing as we dropped a couple of minutes with the puncture

Cheers Ian, was nice to speak to you too. Can't believe fowden! What a t**t, you clearly gave enough room for him to pass! Did you make a complaint about it?

I really enjoyed the stages, was bumpy in places but has some nice fast sections, gutted I didn't have any incar for this one as my friend who normally does it for me was away at the Somerset stages. Ye just need seat time now and hopefully the times will get better

 

[Andrewclio]

Long overdue update.

No real changes over the last few months, just a new front bumper, wing and headlights since the talbenny stages. This spare shell is coming in handy now
Also fitted a air vent to roof as it's getting pretty hot in there. Got too say makes a massive difference too.





Sorry for the crappy pics but only had my phone with me.

Also took part In a local hillclimb at llys y fran. Which I really enjoyed. My first ever and defiantly be doing it again! Missus took a couple of videos on her phone, bit crap tbh lol

http://youtu.be/zh9NIJtwcq4

http://youtu.be/Nr5nOv8Nlxg

Got some big changes coming hopefully in the near future, going fully independent rear suspension and eventually fully wide track front and rear. Me and nick at pms have been talking for while and it's something that we are both interested in to improve the handling of our cars and stopping the picking up of the rear wheel.

Next event is prescot hillclimb October 4th and all being well prembrey stages the following weekend

 

[Simon_16v]

That last photo is proper cool!

 

[Kenny.s]

Long overdue update.

Got some big changes coming hopefully in the near future, going fully independent rear suspension and eventually fully wide track front and rear. Me and nick at pms have been talking for while and it's something that we are both interested in to improve the handling of our cars and stopping the picking up of the rear wheel.

Next event is prescot hillclimb October 4th and all being well prembrey stages the following weekend

Looking good!

Regarding going independent at the back, if you're looking to do some more hillclimbs etc you know that will exclude you from competing in quite a lot of things?
Unless you enter the car in the Libre class (at least thats what it's called in Scotland) basically the "do what ever you like class" so you would be in with some really serious machinery. Don't take that the wrong way, your car is very nice and well spec'd but a 2.0 fwd, vs a 600-700bhp awd space framed something or other is no contest.

Going independent at the back is obviously a nice thing from a technical point of view and if done properly it could save some weight but it won't in its self stop it lifting a wheel, which raises the question of why you want to stop it doing that? That's not a bad thing in a fwd car. Granted you don't want the car falling over (it is leaning quite a lot in that last picture lol) but that can be cured with spring rates/roll bars. Are you willing to disclose what your rear spring rates are?

 

[JackJack]

Epic picture

 

[Andrewclio]

Looking good!

Regarding going independent at the back, if you're looking to do some more hillclimbs etc you know that will exclude you from competing in quite a lot of things?
Unless you enter the car in the Libre class (at least thats what it's called in Scotland) basically the "do what ever you like class" so you would be in with some really serious machinery. Don't take that the wrong way, your car is very nice and well spec'd but a 2.0 fwd, vs a 600-700bhp awd space framed something or other is no contest.

Going independent at the back is obviously a nice thing from a technical point of view and if done properly it could save some weight but it won't in its self stop it lifting a wheel, which raises the question of why you want to stop it doing that? That's not a bad thing in a fwd car. Granted you don't want the car falling over (it is leaning quite a lot in that last picture lol) but that can be cured with spring rates/roll bars. Are you willing to disclose what your rear spring rates are?

Cheers Kenny,

The hillclimb are just for a bit of fun a lot less stressful and really relaxed atmosphere. the local llys y fran hillclimb run a 'rally car class' which As long as it meets the Msa rules for rally is ok to do any modification you wish. Again still not going to match the bdg and millington powered escorts lol

As for the independent rear setup there is a few reasons why I wanted to go down this route, firstly I've also wanted to do the wide arch s1600 kit just because I love the way they look without using stupidly large wheel spacers
Secondly as I'm running the front wishbone kit from pms without a front anti roll bar, without going stupidly high with the springs rates I'm always going to have a lot of roll from the front, to try and reduced the roll widening the track will help to reduce this whilst not using high front spring rates which won't be any good for Tarmac stage rally,

Thirdly having a independent rear I agree won't completely eliminate the picking up of the rear wheel but should reduce it. changing spring rates would help reduce the amount of roll and reduce the amount of weight transfer helping to keep the rear down but for Tarmac rallying running high spring rates on bumpy and broken Tarmac just won't work,



This is the s1600 rear axle which uses the original mounting points, but massively expensive!! Nick thinks that's we could produce something much lighter than this which like you said will help with weight saving

 

[NorthloopCup]

You can re-engineer a original rear beam to convert it to independent rear quite easily mate. I've looked at doing it on mine ages ago.

 

[sam JFM]

Cheers Kenny,

The hillclimb are just for a bit of fun a lot less stressful and really relaxed atmosphere. the local llys y fran hillclimb run a 'rally car class' which As long as it meets the Msa rules for rally is ok to do any modification you wish. Again still not going to match the bdg and millington powered escorts lol

As for the independent rear setup there is a few reasons why I wanted to go down this route, firstly I've also wanted to do the wide arch s1600 kit just because I love the way they look without using stupidly large wheel spacers
Secondly as I'm running the front wishbone kit from pms without a front anti roll bar, without going stupidly high with the springs rates I'm always going to have a lot of roll from the front, to try and reduced the roll widening the track will help to reduce this whilst not using high front spring rates which won't be any good for Tarmac stage rally,

Thirdly having a independent rear I agree won't completely eliminate the picking up of the rear wheel but should reduce it. changing spring rates would help reduce the amount of roll and reduce the amount of weight transfer helping to keep the rear down but for Tarmac rallying running high spring rates on bumpy and broken Tarmac just won't work,

View attachment 113959

This is the s1600 rear axle which uses the original mounting points, but massively expensive!! Nick thinks that's we could produce something much lighter than this which like you said will help with weight saving

Can you do that without falling foul of 48.4.1 in the blue book?

 

[Kenny.s]

I did wonder what the set up was at the back of the S1600 cars, I'm assuming there must be another part that ties the inner pick ups to the chassis some how? I'm liking that set up though.
The S1600 cars all 3 wheeled so while they may have been independent I'd be guessing that was possibly partly to get the wider rear track?

Are you planning to fit a front ARB? Lifting the inside rear can help with turn in on a FWD car, it's doing nothing other than causing drag if it stays planted on the road.
Admittedly, setting a car up for a rally stage vs a race or a sprint is a bit different so what works for one might not be ideal for another.

Regarding the MSA rules about changing the suspension type, it was my understanding that they (MSA) generally didn't allow you to do this unless you went into the free for all classes, ie Libre
Reg: 48.4.1 does sound like it's to prohibit a change of suspension type, might be worth a chat with you eligibility scrutineer before you commit to anything? I've been keeping in touch with mine throughout the build on my car and have kept all the emails just incase I get any questions at events.

 

[Andrewclio]

I did wonder what the set up was at the back of the S1600 cars, I'm assuming there must be another part that ties the inner pick ups to the chassis some how? I'm liking that set up though.
The S1600 cars all 3 wheeled so while they may have been independent I'd be guessing that was possibly partly to get the wider rear track?

Are you planning to fit a front ARB? Lifting the inside rear can help with turn in on a FWD car, it's doing nothing other than causing drag if it stays planted on the road.
Admittedly, setting a car up for a rally stage vs a race or a sprint is a bit different so what works for one might not be ideal for another.

Regarding the MSA rules about changing the suspension type, it was my understanding that they (MSA) generally didn't allow you to do this unless you went into the free for all classes, ie Libre
Reg: 48.4.1 does sound like it's to prohibit a change of suspension type, might be worth a chat with you eligibility scrutineer before you commit to anything? I've been keeping in touch with mine throughout the build on my car and have kept all the emails just incase I get any questions at events.

Ye the s1600 rear wishbones both pickup from the rear beam. The beam uses the same mounting points as the standard axle. Also uses a rear arb as you can see the last picture

View attachment 113969
View attachment 113970
View attachment 113971


I don't think I will fit a front arb, the advantages of gaining extra traction out of corners especially doing single venue will be much more beneficial in the tight twisty like on airfields etc. Also using adjustable suspension and a range of different springs rates will help dial out most the roll

Regarding the Msa rule, I think it's such a gray area, as you look at any 6 link on a rear of a escort mk2 for example they don't use any standard pick points for the suspension or retain the leaf springs. My view on the rule is its there to stop any dramatic changes like seen from the era of Andy button 306 where the vehicle was completely changed to space frame example and all the pick up points/geometry is completely altered. I'll have a chat with my local scrut just to be on the safe side, but I don't think it will be a problem, because if it is then my front wishbones wouldn't be allowed either and I have had the car log booked and enter a few events with out a problem since

 

[Kenny.s]

That last picture is proper drool material the other links dont appear to work though?

If I could get away with it in what I intend to do with my car I would potentially be interested in an independent set up but I suspect it would be some time before I was ready to do it.

The rule on suspension is a bit grey (as are a lot of the MSA regs) but I've had this conversation with the scruitineer before and as far as he was concerend you can't change a beam axle for independent, or a live axle for a de-dion if you want to stay in a road car class but they will let you change the mountings and pick up points, ie leaf spring to 5 link with coilovers or moving a pick up point for more castor for example.

Your front wishbones aren't a problem, you've kept the same "type" of suspension, it's still a macpherson strut with a lower wishbone. If you went to double wishbone then you would be in breech of the regulation.

 

[mikekean]

One thing to note about Escorts and their 5/6 link suspension as this was a homologated modification under the group 4 regs at the time.. Like you say though its a massive grey area, the chances are unless someone puts in a dispute against you and your car Is inspected you will more than likely never have an issue. Its all about interpretation really, if you can make an independent rear end pick up off the standard mounting points then I cannot see how that would go against the regs..

 

[sam JFM]

48.4.1.
The suspension must retain the operating
principle and utilise the mounting points as provided by
the vehicle manufacturer.

I would suggest that its well worth asking someone about it who actually knows.

Even if you keep the mounting points in the same place as mike suggests, it could be easily argued that you have changed the operating principle (from torsion beam to IRS)


You don't want to spend ££ on it only to have someone deem it illegal.

Would be a great mod though!

 

[mikekean]

Exactly my point, its all about interpretation. Best bet is to ring the MSA, if they say its legal ask them to put it in writing.. That way no one can ever dispute it!

 

[Andrewclio]

Right then just got off the phone to the local scrut and he seems to think if the car has had a homologation with independent rear suspension I.e s1600 then I should be ok(same as the group 4 thing and 5/6 link with the escorts) I would have to supply the homologation papers if ever question about it.
I also explain to him that the rear beam holding the semi trailing arms will be utilising the original mounting points of the torsion beam and he answer was 'well if your using the original mounting points then it would be fine with me' lol I do understand that ones interpretation might well be different from another but seen as he's the main scrut here in south/west wales I know I'll be ok here at local events

 

[sam JFM]

That's top news! Get it designed!

 

[Kenny.s]

Thats a result then. When he says you may need to provide homologation papers, I assume you just need to prove that the S1600 cars had that semi trailing arm design?

I would potentially be interested in this but i'm a long way off needing it. Next time i'm talking to my local scruit ill see what he says about it.

 

[ian-speedy]

There are loads of people running rear suspension they shouldn't be in clubman rallies and never get bothered , namely 205's mostly , with what your looking to do with your car you'll never be bothered by it
Cheers Ian

 

[Kenny.s]

I sent my local scruit an email with the pictures you posted of the rear axle, no go for me up here

I need to caution you that I think that your proposed mods would contravene S 12.8.2 AND 3. Blue Book page 332.
Further, the fact that it has been homologated is another grey area as the homologation is for a S1600 rally car so to be able to use this mod, I think you would need to make your car exactly replicate all aspects of the S1600 which would be very expensive.
While the eligibility scrutineer has ok'd it for Wales, I think that the mod could be successfully protested.

 

[Andrewclio]

I sent my local scruit an email with the pictures you posted of the rear axle, no go for me up here

I need to caution you that I think that your proposed mods would contravene S 12.8.2 AND 3. Blue Book page 332.
Further, the fact that it has been homologated is another grey area as the homologation is for a S1600 rally car so to be able to use this mod, I think you would need to make your car exactly replicate all aspects of the S1600 which would be very expensive.
While the eligibility scrutineer has ok'd it for Wales, I think that the mod could be successfully protested.

Is that just for circuit racing or would that include rallying Kenny?

The Msa just amaze me, you can spend stupid amounts of money on sequential gearboxes and engines but for something in comparison rather simply and cheaper to produce and it's banded, not as if your completely redesigning the rear of chassis! Mad!!

 

[ian-speedy]

If you make the beam to bolt to the original mounting points then I don't see there being a problem , you could fit , as the S1600 arms are to the beam , the top shock mount stays the same so would stay in the rules., it's what Colin Satchell has very cleverly done with the 106 pugs ,

ok if your doing the national championship then everything has to be done by the book , but for clubman rallying like Andrews doing then it would never be questioned , Christ there are Pug 205's rallying that have turreted body shells and coilovers that never get questioned

 

[EVOgone]

Looking good!

Regarding going independent at the back, if you're looking to do some more hillclimbs etc you know that will exclude you from competing in quite a lot of things?
Unless you enter the car in the Libre class (at least thats what it's called in Scotland) basically the "do what ever you like class" so you would be in with some really serious machinery. Don't take that the wrong way, your car is very nice and well spec'd but a 2.0 fwd, vs a 600-700bhp awd space framed something or other is no contest.

Going independent at the back is obviously a nice thing from a technical point of view and if done properly it could save some weight but it won't in its self stop it lifting a wheel, which raises the question of why you want to stop it doing that? That's not a bad thing in a fwd car. Granted you don't want the car falling over (it is leaning quite a lot in that last picture lol) but that can be cured with spring rates/roll bars. Are you willing to disclose what your rear spring rates are?

Wouldnt bother just get some decent dampers and you dont need it. I have the PM rear beam kit (Reiger dampers) and its as good as anything out there.... Would focus elsewere..