cliosport......i could really do with a bit of help on handling :(

[jinjur]

Right chaps.....sorry for the delay.

Ok, this started way at the beginning of this year when we had the terrible snow and the roads (well over here in NI) were utterly destroyed.

Car was already a bit loose and i was putting this down to the worn Uniroyals at that time.

Wifey was driving the car one evening after and hit a big pothole......she told me and i went out in the car a bit concerned but didn't notice any big change. Still floaty, but still bald tyres. Bald in general.....not chewed btw. Worn evenly across the tyre and got about a year out of them. Car still tracked laser straight even after this by the way.

Anyway, i stripped the suspension apart shortly afterwards as i was just going to refresh it and found worn top mounts, duff ball joint etc and just started the refresh process to get me where i am now.

Now.....silly comments aside, I am left with a fully new (apart from steering rack bushes) suspension setup up front and a car that handles like s**t and really want to try and get to the bottom of it and understand what is happening.

I hope to get to the alignment people this week who can print full setup information as with all the new components, this might give an insight.

Dan, deffo not straight.....down the motorway i am running left hand down by about 5 degrees. I am surprised the car hasn't complained from an ESP perspective yet


A

 

[jinjur]

Take it to someone that knows what they're doing as I said about 3 pages ago iirc, I don't want to hear I do to have time/money, I can do my own work etc lol. You'll be 44 before its fixed if you keep on the way you are and amassed half the tinterwebs memory with your problem.

Was sitting on this one for a while but yeah, its still annoying me.

That was a pathetic response...........this is a technical section, i am trying my best to learn and understand what is wrong with the car. Nothing that needed done to the suspension has required a specialist, so why would i pay for that?

I go to a specialist for alignment information and then come here, to my community, that i pay to be a part of for help and advice.....unless I am missing something and there is some secret methods for undoing bolts, replacing components and tightening up?

Id rather you didn't post at all if that's what you got bud, its an annoying enough problem without it.

J

 

[Chip-mk1]

If your rear shocks are knackered nothing you do on the front can correct that. I'd look at those next.

 

[jinjur]

If your rear shocks are knackered nothing you do on the front can correct that. I'd look at those next.

Replaced just last week before the alignment check buddy. :/

 

[Chip-mk1]

Replaced just last week before the alignment check buddy. :/

Sorry, I must have missed that bit.

Steering rack bushes if they havent been changed? They made my turbo terrible.

 

[MG cup]

Was sitting on this one for a while but yeah, its still annoying me.

That was a pathetic response...........this is a technical section, i am trying my best to learn and understand what is wrong with the car. Nothing that needed done to the suspension has required a specialist, so why would i pay for that?

I go to a specialist for alignment information and then come here, to my community, that i pay to be a part of for help and advice.....unless I am missing something and there is some secret methods for undoing bolts, replacing components and tightening up?

Id rather you didn't post at all if that's what you got bud, its an annoying enough problem without it.

J

haha you will find I was giving you plenty of help In here but I just changed my username

The reason I say what I said in my last comment is you keep harping on about strange handling, having replaced this and that on the front end, had it aligned several times and still the complaint of the steering wheel not being true, even on the ramp FFS.

Soooooooo from this I draw a conclusion that you or the person doing the alignment doesn't know what they are doing and I'm pissing into the wind trying to give you help.

FYI nuts and bolts are the easy bits, having the savvy to spot something wrong while playing with these nuts and bolts and having an idea of what goes in what order is the tricky bit.

Best of luck but I stick to my previous post and get someone that knows what there doing to help you (not meant in a derogatory way) as it might actually help you in the future.

 

[jinjur]

haha you will find I was giving you plenty of help In here but I just changed my username

The reason I say what I said in my last comment is you keep harping on about strange handling, having replaced this and that on the front end, had it aligned several times and still the complaint of the steering wheel not being true, even on the ramp FFS.

Soooooooo from this I draw a conclusion that you or the person doing the alignment doesn't know what they are doing and I'm pissing into the wind trying to give you help.

FYI nuts and bolts are the easy bits, having the savvy to spot something wrong while playing with these nuts and bolts and having an idea of what goes in what order is the tricky bit.

Best of luck but I stick to my previous post and get someone that knows what there doing to help you (not meant in a derogatory way) as it might actually help you in the future.

Right....for the benefit of this post, can you just assume that i put everything in correctly?

You never know, someone might just learn something and the thread might be useful for someone in the future. I mean ffs.......of all the things in cars, I will be the first to admit that all of the settings involved in a good steering setup are a mystery to me. However......the point remains, I am not replacing this and that, i have replaced EVERYTHING.

So if you could elaborate on "having the savvy to spot something wrong while playing with these nuts and bolts and having an idea of what goes in what order is the tricky bit", perhaps that would be of use?

What "something" am i looking for.....or is this just a generalization in terms of argument sake?

And with regards to me or someone doing the alignment not knowing what we are doing.....me? probably not, but i am trying to learn what i don't know. I am savvy by the way, more so with engines and gearboxes granted but I would rather trust my own mistakes that pay for someone else to do the same. And that would be 3 separate alignment places including a major outfit with a Corghi machine you are referring to. You mean that?

And failing the above..........getting someone that knows what they are doing with Renaults, never mind Renault suspension.......is tough enough in Northern Ireland unless you can tell me otherwise?

J

 

[jinjur]

BTW, chip "Measure the distance from the centreline of the two wheels on each side? (see if the shell is bent)"

You mean corner to corner diagonally right?

J

 

[Chip-mk1]

BTW, chip "Measure the distance from the centreline of the two wheels on each side? (see if the shell is bent)"

You mean corner to corner diagonally right?

J

Diagonally is harder to do, If the shell has had a real whack it will show up just looking on the same side wheels and that takes literally a few seconds to measure.

 

[jinjur]

ok boss...........right now, ill try anything. Will give it a go tonight

 

[m4tt274]

My phase 1 did this, it was so twitchy and floats it was unnerving.
Truthfully i never found the problem.

If i let go of the steering wheel and put the brakes on the steering wheel would wind itself all over!

 

[jinjur]

My phase 1 did this, it was so twitchy and floats it was unnerving.
Truthfully i never found the problem.

If i let go of the steering wheel and put the brakes on the steering wheel would wind itself all over!

Dont want to sell this wee bus

J

 

[MG cup]

Right....for the benefit of this post, can you just assume that i put everything in correctly?

You never know, someone might just learn something and the thread might be useful for someone in the future. I mean ffs.......of all the things in cars, I will be the first to admit that all of the settings involved in a good steering setup are a mystery to me. However......the point remains, I am not replacing this and that, i have replaced EVERYTHING.

So if you could elaborate on "having the savvy to spot something wrong while playing with these nuts and bolts and having an idea of what goes in what order is the tricky bit", perhaps that would be of use?

What "something" am i looking for.....or is this just a generalization in terms of argument sake?

And with regards to me or someone doing the alignment not knowing what we are doing.....me? probably not, but i am trying to learn what i don't know. I am savvy by the way, more so with engines and gearboxes granted but I would rather trust my own mistakes that pay for someone else to do the same. And that would be 3 separate alignment places including a major outfit with a Corghi machine you are referring to. You mean that?

And failing the above..........getting someone that knows what they are doing with Renaults, never mind Renault suspension.......is tough enough in Northern Ireland unless you can tell me otherwise?

J

'Something' I will never be able to teach or tell you across a forum.

You have replaced 'everything' but have said several times after the alignment being done that the steering isn't straight. That's your problem..... What is causing that is the harder bit. Now either there is wear in one of the components that when the tracking being done its all kosher but as soon as the car is moved said component shifts and the settings are changed.

Or the alignment isn't being setup right in the first place which would be my thoughts from you saying the steering wheel wasn't even straight during the last alignment you had done. Hence getting someone that knows what there doing.

It could be as simple as noticing simple things like this (from my car when I bought it) .Something as small as 3-4mm wear on the subframe made it totally un drivable above 60mph.

Or this

Get it put on wobble plates on a four poster and have a good dig around, you'll find problem if there is one other than the alignment pretty quick.

There's not much point in measuring for a bent chassis if a hunter alignment is coming back okay.

 

[jinjur]

'Something' I will never be able to teach or tell you across a forum.

You have replaced 'everything' but have said several times after the alignment being done that the steering isn't straight. That's your problem..... What is causing that is the harder bit. Now either there is wear in one of the components that when the tracking being done its all kosher but as soon as the car is moved said component shifts and the settings are changed.

Or the alignment isn't being setup right in the first place which would be my thoughts from you saying the steering wheel wasn't even straight during the last alignment you had done. Hence getting someone that knows what there doing.

It could be as simple as noticing simple things like this (from my car when I bought it) .Something as small as 3-4mm wear on the subframe made it totally un drivable above 60mph.

Or this

Get it put on wobble plates on a four poster and have a good dig around, you'll find problem if there is one other than the alignment pretty quick.

There's not much point in measuring for a bent chassis if a hunter alignment is coming back okay.

Ok bud....better

I am getting it aligned again tomorrow (hunter style) just to get the figures after all was replaced.

With regards to the sub-frame "wear".....I am assuming a bang could be responsible for that, yeah?

Did you just pull all the subframe bolts in turn and look for shift?



p.s. dont mean to be narky.......this is just frustrating

J

 

[jinjur]

Sorry bud.......that top image, that looks like the bolt going through the wishbone.....correct?

J

 

[jinjur]

97 3/4" center to center

That sound about right? More importantly.....the same

J

 

[Martin_172]

on my current one I replaced...
Bottom arms inc ball joints
track rod ends
track rods
steering rack bushes
top mounts
dampers all round
new springs

basically EVERYTHING that can wear, and still I had odd handling, took it all to get setup on my local hunter machine and straight away it showed up drivers side hub bent, running 2 degrees more camber than the passengers side, you think something that hard cant bend but it has at some point!

 

[.Stevo.C.]

on my current one I replaced...
Bottom arms inc ball joints
track rod ends
track rods
steering rack bushes
top mounts
dampers all round
new springs

basically EVERYTHING that can wear, and still I had odd handling, took it all to get setup on my local hunter machine and straight away it showed up drivers side hub bent, running 2 degrees more camber than the passengers side, you think something that hard cant bend but it has at some point!

Skelped a kerb at one point maybe.

 

[jinjur]

Fair point on the camber bud....i did raise it before but it wasn't really flagged.

If you look at both of my charts....the pass. side camber is roughly a degree out from the driv. side. Note, the pass. side took the hit.


Secondly....the first chart shows only the pass. side out.......the driv. side was fine. Just after this......i changed the top mounts and the camber of both got messed.


Now....question.....do the top mount rubbers need lubed or anything daft to seat?


I checked the construction of the bearing etc quite a few times but now i am paranoid. Why would changing the shocks/top mounts/bearings cause such a camber change to negative?

Surely that could be eating my tyres too?

J

 

[jinjur]

Skelped a kerb at one point maybe.

Could a pothole do the same?

ANy checks on that or is it going to be to miniscule to see/measure?

J

 

[jinjur]

Right....just back from a different tyre place.

Popped it on the alignment and the guy immediately noted that the steering was ever so slightly out. He advised that if this was just a bottom arm swap and it put the car out of alignment, then it would very much suggest that the previous arm which was aligned, was probably bent.

He also put my mind at ease by insisting that the chassis was straight......well, as straight as they come out of the factory

Now.....the crux of this i think.

The camber is bucked. About -2 degrees on both sides and he reckons it should be around -0.32 degrees. Is that correct?

If that is the case and please correct me if i am wrong, it firstly confirms that the bang didn't buck the camber on one side.

Secondly.....everything is Renault apart from the top mounts and bearings. Could these and these alone be responsible for this camber problem, if it is indeed a problem?

I am going to strip one side tonight to firstly confirm that i have it assembled correctly, compare it with the old ones that were fine and if i note a big difference, i will be putting the old back in just to prove it.

Has anyone ever experienced this before?

Does this sound feasible?

 

[jinjur]

Right.....looking at previous printout.....it suggests that the camber should be -0.80.....whereas this printout suggests -0.32?

Either way......the first printout showed the camber bucked on one side (after the bump) possibly leaning to damaged bottom arm

The second printout was after top mounts were replaced.....boom, both camber messed......side that was bumped moreso

Now, bottom arms replaced, they are almost identically out





Has to be top bushes.

Also, what is the actual.....real.....correct camber for a 2003 Ph2 172 FF?


J

 

[jinjur]

Right oh.......i replaced the old top mounts out of curiosity........

It feels.....umm......different.

Time will tell tomorrow when the guys check it again.

:/

J

 

[jinjur]

Ok......you are going to like this.

Original.....and possibly quite sleepy shocks put back in. Top mounts assembled exactly the same order......


Camber down to LH:-0.76 RH:-0.90 as opposed to roughly -2.0 each side.

Car still slightly skittish but in a different league. I have a rack bush on its way to tick that off the list.



Now going through the wrestle with Renault about replacing the 4 month old shocks. They want to fit them to the car to prove they are at fault before they will replace.


If they find no fault (or lie about it) I have to pay the labor cost


FFS

J

 

[MG cup]

wtf are you up to hahaha

You had a perfectly good car there with acceptable settings, new shocks and the rest replaced and you went and swapped back to different top mounts and shock absorbers?? Why?

You do realise that any time you touch anything in the front suspension and some times the rear you have to get it re aligned, sorry to sound dickish but I think your the problem in this situation.

 

[jinjur]

eh?

hold on..........all i want is factory spec......right?


Factory spec isnt -2 degrees of camber is it?


The only thing i changed was the shocks last night, yeah? And now the camber is back closer to spec and the car feels much nicer.

What is the problem with that?

FYI.....these shocks have been off and on about 3 times now and completely disassembled top mounts and each time, have landed the car to in and around that figure.



So you reckon i got it wrong 3 times with the new shocks and conveniently got it right with the old shocks?

You reckon that the car drove home terribly yesterday albeit tracking straight and today, it is a thousand times better is in my head?


Sometimes, you are a condescending idiot mate......i appreciate your help to date, I really do. But don't post in this thread any more chap. Every post you make is loaded and if you took that snidey tone with everyone here looking for help and to learn......this would be a flipping quiet board.


So please, just ignore this thread.



Anyone else, please feel free to comment if you have any thoughts on what i have been through without calling me an idiot.

J

 

[MG cup]

I don't plan to, you are keen to learn it seems but you really don't understand the basics so are very hard to help, tbh it just sounds like you want to talk about an ever changing problem from having a re read of this, massively conflicting.

I can't see anyone managing to help you tbh as your conflicting in everything you do, take it to someone that has an idea, learn from them and save the money your spending on alignments

 

[jinjur]

I don't plan to, you are keen to learn it seems but you really don't understand the basics so are very hard to help, tbh it just sounds like you want to talk about an ever changing problem from having a re read of this, massively conflicting.

I can't see anyone managing to help you tbh as your conflicting in everything you do, take it to someone that has an idea, learn from them and save the money your spending on alignments

What basics don't i understand?

I understand that -2 deg of camber isn't stock so I am trying to find out why.

What other method would you suggest to achieve the same?

Its not an ever changing problem either.....if you look at the readings of when the new shocks went on, you will see the figure go high. Nothing is conflicting here.....correct me if so.

And fwiw.....i didnt pay a bean today as the guys are decent and wanted to help get it sorted.

J

 

[jinjur]

Shocks are sent back to Renault for inspection now....not sure what will come of that. Renault workshop inspected the work that I did and are happy with it and quite bemused as to why the shocks could do that. Only thoughts they had might be damaged top cups......but as i said, both of them? And also, fixed when old shocks are in?

Also.....maybe i am being silly but they shouldn't really dictate the geometry of the shock too much....or should they? I would have thought it was the shock shaft that did that.

They also pondered the holes in the shocks/hub joint being wrong or elongated which would be 100% an issue with the shock. But as far as i can remember....they weren't. Yet again, same argument as above....on both shocks? Bad luck or bad batch?

Anyway, replaced the steering rack bushes last night.............sweet baby Jesus that is a pain in the ass job. One bolt makes it hell. The second 13mm on the passenger side.

Why.........why would you do that Renault?


The one tool that would make this acceptable (and one unfortunately that I have but is broken) is a 13mm ratchet spanner. That would make it infinitely better. A 16mm ratchet spanner would help too.

Actually....the bendy ones like this (http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/Automotiv...t=UK_Hand_Tools_Equipment&hash=item4d134476d5) but obviously a better brand. I am fairly sure these would break in transit never mind under load.

*added to the "must replace" list*




J

 

[vecbtb]

This thread has been very interesting. I changed my front dampers for new ones a couple of years ago. The car never felt the same after it - very floaty. With nothing else changed I lost a degree of castor. That's with the same top mounts, springs, lower arms etc. I have never worked out why and can't see how the damper could be at fault, but it's the only thing that changed. They are going in the bin now and I'm getting B14's so it will be interesting to see if the castor returns or not.

 

[jinjur]

This thread has been very interesting. I changed my front dampers for new ones a couple of years ago. The car never felt the same after it - very floaty. With nothing else changed I lost a degree of castor. That's with the same top mounts, springs, lower arms etc. I have never worked out why and can't see how the damper could be at fault, but it's the only thing that changed. They are going in the bin now and I'm getting B14's so it will be interesting to see if the castor returns or not.

So...................ITS NOT JUST ME?



J

 

[jinjur]

oh
my
god....

Right.....the saga continues.

So, Renault UK agreed to replace the shocks but they did not admit there was a problem with them. The value just didn't warrant investigation apparently. Happy with that though.

So, tonight.....I started in to fit them. Cautiously however, i decided to "ghetto" my own camber gauge as that seemed to be the issue before. Here it is, a simple plumb line and bit of straight card and i have marked on it the reading on both sides (identical) with the old shocks in. This was the setup that Charles Hurst verified as correct.



Now, I went ahead and fitted the new shock......painstaking carefully, even though i can now do this in my fecking sleep.

All done, tightened up and took the car out for a lap of the block to settle it, back into the garage and the camber is out!!!!. See below.



Absolutely baffled.......nothing.........NOTHING ELSE HAS CHANGED APART FROM THIS SHOCK. I just know that difference is going to see the car back at its skittish 2 deg. camber again.

Trying to find out what is going on and comparing the old and new shocks, I am trying to take some measurements. Its hard as I know that wear is going to be a factor around the bolt holes (the only thing that can be doing this IMO) and there is rust to content with, BUT.......

With my cheapo gauge, i measured the distance between the edge of the top hole and the shock tube, i figured that the bottom shouldn't have too much effect on the camber and also read that camber bolts are used on the top holes (correct me if i am wrong)

Old shock.

New shock.



I know its probably not clear in that shot, but just to clarify.....even with rust and all the s**te of the day in the old one, its about 1.5mm difference. I took a measurement from the old shock and put the gauge in the new shock below to show this difference.



So......I know you are sick of hearing it guys, sorry.......

Can anyone please tell me what the actual fck is wrong here?

Would very much appreciate opinions of the dealerships and people such as Fred and other traders who may have seen lots of suspension installations.

Wrecking my brain here guys.....seriously :/

Andy

 

[NorthloopCup]

What shock absorbers are you buying? Are they for a 172 cup by any chance? Reason I'm asking is the cups are wider track at the front courtesy of a different subframe. That means the wishbone is pushed further out so the only way to keep the camber on a cup the same as a normal 172 is to put the bolt holes in different positions to gain the correction. That would explain why when you fit your original dampers everything goes back to normal, but goes awry with the new dampers fitted.

My advice - fit the new shocks/leave them on and buy some camber bolts. That way you can adjust it back to the factory geometry that you want.

Romeo done.

 

[Tony Hunter]

You really reckon that the cup shocks are drilled different to the normal ones Mark, seems a lot of effort for Renault to do that.

Saying that you could be right, they did it with the wishbones.

Need Adam to get two sets and measure the difference.

 

[NorthloopCup]

You really reckon that the cup shocks are drilled different to the normal ones Mark, seems a lot of effort for Renault to do that.

Saying that you could be right, they did it with the wishbones.

Need Adam to get two sets and measure the difference.

How else would they be able to correct the camber mate? It's the only logical answer to this issue in my eyes tbh.

 

[Tony Hunter]

True, it's just not cropped up before.

 

[jinjur]

Morning gents,

Well, as far as my understanding goes, these are not cup shocks. They have the green sticker on them instead of the yellow/blue one that the cup shocks come with and they are also oil filled rather than the gas cup shocks.

These have been bought by going into my local Renault dealership, giving them my chassis number (which has been confirmed as being a 2003 ph2 FF) and they order the parts.

Renault Wolverhampton on here have confirmed the part numbers are correct for me as well.

My understanding was that the cup shocks / hubs have the bolt holes much further apart, perhaps i am wrong.


I have no problem in fitting camber bolts to get this fixed, but as i said to Renault, if they cannot provide me with shocks for this car that will work and are advising that i use camber bolts, then surely they should be providing them with the shock? They started giving me the line of the car being 10 years old and that it is going to be hard to get the correct parts for it.

Thats just ridiculous.

J

 

[jayxx83]

Have you changed your arb bushes and drop links? Pretty sure this will be the issue.

Over the the years I have changed many a suspension part and have an understanding of what each ball joint / bush does. Once my arb seized up and it felt like the driveshaft was gone. Relubed and all good. They arb bushes have now gone and the car is super stiff at speed on the front and jumps at speed on motorway lane changes. New bushes are on order.

I think your symptoms sound similar. Good luck getting it sorted.

 

[jinjur]

Hey bud, I haven't changed the arb bushes at all (4 of them) but i hadn't factored that they may cause skittishness.

The outer ones actually seemed ok when i had them off (to replace the bottom arms) but i guess that means nothing. They were still well lubed if that means anything.

The inners are obviously original items and are a little bit worn looking (minor cracks) so i know i have to address that, but i have heard its a pig of a job so was parking that for a bit :S

I have to say though, original and old shocks back in the front, the car is in a different league. Laser straight down the motorway with only the slightest bit of writhing on differing surfaces and cambers. I had imagined that this was one of the traits of this chassis, correct me if i am wrong.

A full report has been sent to Renault as even the master tech and warranty manager looked (only at my pictures and measurements granted) but agreed that something was wrong.

Lets see what they come back with.

I have to say that the suspension being closer to camber correct has highlighted something that was mentioned on a tyre thread somewhere about Uniroyal Rainsport 2's having soft sidewalls......I have actually noted this now, pushing into a corner, i can almost feel the sidewall rolling and the turn washing out into under steer but with the new shocks in (at -2 deg of camber) this doesn't happen. I swapped the tyres front to rear as i just bought PS3's and this doesn't happen with the Michelin's.

Different league of tyre i know but i had always stood up for the Uniroyals however, it would seem that the camber was hiding this trait.

A

 

[jinjur]

Sooooooo.......

Long time coming.

The case was raised to Renault Europe as Renault UK had no clue about the part specifications etc.

Renault Europe confirmed that they changed manufacturer/design of the shocks in the middle of 2009 and they have no information concerning why there are measurement differences....BUT CAN CONFIRM THE DIFFERENCE IN MY CASE. They are quite puzzled and are looking back through specifications.

The ONLY options they have suggested, is a refund and fit aftermarket shocks or get camber bolts. At my own cost.

So basically.....Renault have told me......that they cannot get the exact shock that is on my car that will give the correct geometry for my car.

Seriously.

I am quite baffled.....surely this has come up before.....i gather there are many, many, many people on here who have just went for the bog standard setup refresh on a non cup, ph2 with the higher castor bottom arms? If so, have you ever confirmed if your camber is correct?

Regards
Andy