The endless battle against Understeer

[Skeeter]

On track yesterday and I found I still have a lot more understeer than I was hoping.

So far on my 172 I have fitted a Whiteline ARB, Sportlines, Cup front shocks, camber bolts and trackday tyres (Federal RSRs). The alignment is setup standard but with -1.5 camber on the front.

So what other weapons do we have in the war against understeer? I've heard that some toe out on the front can help. What other tools are available? Are there any stiffer rear shock options? How much will removing weight help? What do other people do, or do you just tollerate the understeer and drive around it.

Its much improved on the standard car, but still not as good as I was hoping all the mods would make it. A friend has RSRs on his MX5 and in the dry its rare for the power of the car to be able to overwhelm the rear tyres, but the front of mine doesn't seem to reflect that same level of grip since fitting the Federals.

 

[Christopher]

Track tuition?

Its more valuable than any further mod.

 

[BIGASH]

Depends how bad it is really but when I used to have my R27 I just used to drive around it rather than start doing more stuff to it! What setting was the ARB on? Did the back feel loose at any stage?

Have you just done cup front shocks and normal rears? If so then this will probably be part of the cause.

How did you find the RSR's

 

[Daniel]

With all that fitted (and correct tyre pressures) you shouldn't be suffering from massive understeer.

Although with uprated front suspension and standard rear suspension its going to cause you grief.

Also, what tyres are you running? Both make and size?

Have you thought about braking earlier and turning in smoother? I don't mean to sound condescending (sp) but with all that caper on your car, it could just be driver error.

 

[KevF182]

I think an understeer balance will always be there unless you massively stiffen the rear spings/beam. You've probably impoved overall grip with the changes though, and obviously driven faster with it.

Did you play around with tyre pressures at all? Makes most of the difference in shifting grip/balance in my opinion. I like a bit of toe out, but I don't think it will acheive much on its own.

If the tyres were quite new it wouldn't have helped their cause - they will probably provide more consistency and feel better once most of the tread has worn down.

 

[Riley!]

Ran a similar set up myself for my first track day, later on I went for more camber as I was also getting a lot of under steer, ran -3 degrees and it transformed the car in the corners. Give it a go

Suspension was koni adjustabels with sportlines, camber bolts and ast solid top mounts by the way

 

[Skeeter]

Cheers guys, Ill try and respond to all the above.

The Sportlines are all round, front and read. I have fairly new standard rear shocks and brand new Cup front shocks as from what I can tell the rear shocks are the same on the cup as the standard car. ARB is on hard and tyres are 195/50/15 Federal RS-Rs.

Its by no means massive understeer, not at all, its vastly improved on what I have run before (PE2s on standard suspension with just the ARB, and a completely stock car on 16" T1R's - which was massively understeer tastic ). It's just not as improved as what I was expecting. Might just be me over anticipating what to expect from the suspension.

The rear end in the dry had not a hint of stepping out, but with the RSRs on that not unexpected. In the wet lift off oversteer could be cunjured up on demand, which was fun .

They were brand new tyres too, so I've taken that into consideration. I did attempt to play with pressures a bit, but with the morning being wet I only really had the afternoon, and was more concerned with having fun than trying to test pressures. what would people recommend? I ran with them at 32 hot on the front to start with (I left some more air in them as it was wet on the morning), and then dropped them to around 30, but didn't notice much difference. The rears were set to around the same.

I'm at the limit of camber that I can get using camber bolts. what else could I use for more? I'm trying not to spend to much on it though, hence my choice of sportlines and cup shocks rather than a coilover setup.

Its also entirely possible my driving style is doing it, I've not discounted that . I dunno though really. The grippy front end I was expecting wasn't quite there, and bumps in the track really unsettled it.

And the RSR's are great. They are quite obviously a massive step down from something like an R888, but for the price I think they are unbeatable. They are ideal for people like me who only have 1 set of wheels so need a tyre for the road and on track. I had more grip yesterday on the RSRs in the pouring rain than I did on the T1Rs in the dry! If you have track wheels though, you will probubly want to go up a level to something like an R888.

 

[Stava]

Where were you yesterday Skeeter?

 

[Skeeter]

Where were you yesterday Skeeter?

Bedford. Was great fun.

Destroyed my brakes, but that's a whole different story

 

[Sir_Dave]

Try braking later/trail braking, will help weight transfer to the front end when turning into the corner. Ull need to be able to heel & toe for that ideally though.

Also fyi with eibach camber bolts, i got -2.9 at the front!!

 

[Skeeter]

I did try baking later and holding it into the corner, but it made the ABS cut in quite a lot. I've tried heel and toe-ing but I just cant seem to get it. I dunno if its the pedal spacing, my big feet, or just a complete lack of skill on my part (most likely).

 

[Sir_Dave]

Itll be the latter im afraid

Heel & toe is very easy in the 1*2!! What pads are you using out of interest? Cant remember my abs ever kicking in on track tbh.

 

[Skeeter]

Ferodo Performance pads on the front, standards on the rear. The ABS would kick in as you started to turn with the brakes still on.

I've completely munched the front pads and one (recently new) disk so will be replacing them with DS2500s and some more Brembo HCs shortly anyway. Any recommendations for the fears? Standard disks and pads on there atm.

Any other suggestions for things to tweak or change, other than learning to drive properly

 

[Sam@NP]

They are quite obviously a massive step down from something like an R888,

interesting POV

Ive found that running a clio on track rubber changes the balance of them towards more understeery. A good driving tutor should be able to tell you how to improve your car as well as your driving.

 

[markhinton]

I did try baking later and holding it into the corner, but it made the ABS cut in quite a lot. I've tried heel and toe-ing but I just cant seem to get it. I dunno if its the pedal spacing, my big feet, or just a complete lack of skill on my part (most likely).

Keep practicing with h&t - I've got size thirteen feet and never had a problem!

 

[Sir_Dave]

Standard rears are fine. DS2500s/ Brembo HCs are good with braided lines as well. Also removing front fogs/arch liners will aid cooling drastically!!

Other than that, tuition is fantastic, really helps you get the most from the car, & most importantly, yourself!!

You might find that the car is already very capable as it is

 

[Skeeter]

interesting POV

Ive found that running a clio on track rubber changes the balance of them towards more understeery. A good driving tutor should be able to tell you how to improve your car as well as your driving.

Yeah I meant that more as a generalisation rather than specific to the Clio (as I've never driven a Clio on R888s). The RSR's are not a direct competitor to the R888's (Federal do make an R888 style tyre, but I can't remember what its called), but the RSR's are also considerably cheaper. The fact my 15" RSR cost a not insignificant amount less than the 15" PE2s they replaced was the deciding point for me.

But interesting you say that the track rubber can make Clio's understeer more. might explain the feeling I have that the setup I've got isn't quite delivering what I though it would. Any ideas on how to dial it back the other way?

 

[Skeeter]

Standard rears are fine. DS2500s/ Brembo HCs are good with braided lines as well. Also removing front fogs/arch liners will aid cooling drastically!!

Other than that, tuition is fantastic, really helps you get the most from the car, & most importantly, yourself!!

You might find that the car is already very capable as it is

Oh yeah, braided lines, I've got those on, forgot that.

Yeah I am looking at some way to jimmy in some cheap cooling on the brakes. After a particularly quick session at the end of the day (I wasn't racing my mate, honnest Mr marshal, sir ) the chequered flag cam out just in time as at the next corner my pedal went to the floor and I'm down to metal on metal at the front! Previously my tyres had been the limit for how long and how fast I could go on track for, but withh the RSR's the brakes are now the limiting factor.

I think I'm done with Bedford now and want to try somewhere new. I will be sure to book some tuition

 

[Sam@NP]

Yeah I meant that more as a generalisation rather than specific to the Clio

Having driven clios on both I would say there is not a massive difference between them, R888s would set a faster lap time but I reckon 595 RSRs would only be a second slower at most.

What setting is your whiteline on?

 

[Skeeter]

Having driven clios on both I would say there is not a massive difference between them, R888s would set a faster lap time but I reckon 595 RSRs would only be a second slower at most.

What setting is your whiteline on?

Really? Wow, that makes the £50 a corner price difference even more interesting!

The ARBs on the harder of the 2 settings.

 

[imprezaworks]

Sorry to jump in but whats the ideal setting to have the whiteline on? Or is it a case of see how you get on with each setting etc?

 

[Skeeter]

Sorry to jump in but whats the ideal setting to have the whiteline on? Or is it a case of see how you get on with each setting etc?

Yeah give it a try. I fitted mine back when the rest of the suspension was standard. I had it on soft to start with and found it was great on the road, but on track still needed something more. I then set it to hard and its stayed like it. Its only a couple of bolts to adjust it so not to much hassle to try both settings out one afternoon.

 

[imprezaworks]

Cheers.

 

[warwickstingray]

As i have found on many occasions a talented driver in a standard car is much more of a weapon than an average driver in a modded car. I used to love watching a guy in a 1.4 fiesta with a cheap suspension kit on it upset people in his class. I'm no race driver but my recent run at combe in a completely standard 182 FF on P-zero neros didn't leave me feeling that the car suffered from understeer. In fact i found it pretty neutral and brilliantly controllable if you decided to change your plans even halfway through a corner. The rear did what it was told when it was told and didn't yield any surprises unlike my old modded XR2 which became twitchy at the rear. The old rear suspension design allowed alot of weirdness to go on when you pushed the car hard. In fact the clio was the most fun i've had in ages and so good i have no plans to mod the car. Unlike my previous cars.

The only minor issue which is the same with most FWD cars without LSD's i've driven is that i would like to get the power down earlier and harder out of a corner but to be honest even that was good enough for me not to go running out for track day tyres or an LSD.

You could keep messing around trying to make the rear flap around to steer you round corners rather than your input but your asking for trouble if your driving skill is limited and you get caught out by the rear snapping out of line when you don't expect it. Luckily my fiesta sent me infield when i first encountered the limit of my driving skill. You could have made a cup of tea in the time it took me to react!

Ham fisted aggresion and big balls will get you so far as i found but its the last bit that seperates the fast drivers from the really fast drivers. Still and will always be working on the last bit. There's no natural talent at my disposal!

 

[Skeeter]

Yeah the Clio does talk to you a lot through the corner and never makes you nervous about what it might do next. A couple of my friends who have driven it have said that too.

The power understeer is unavoidable, as you say. You just have to learn how much throttle to apply and keep it smooth. I'm not so worried about tweaking in that area.

Its just the initial turn in understeer that I'd like to work on. It sounds like learning to heel and toe and trail brake, and getting some tuition may be the best best, with a few tweaks to my existing alignment setup (bit of toe out and as much camber as I can get).

 

[rich-6]

Am i not the only one thinking 32psi up front is a tad to do with his understeer problem? Id drop it a tadmore and see what happens i dont run at that on my roadtyres

 

[Skeeter]

Yeah any suggestions on pressures would be good.

I wasn't aiming for 32, but as it was wet at the start of the day the tyres didn't get as hot so were at about 30. Then when it dried they climbed so I dropped them back down to 30 hot. They looked visibly soft when they cooled at that presure though. I run 32 on the road. What would people suggest for track?

 

[Cup_Phil]

30 hot is a bit high for track use - try 26 on the front and 28/30 on the rear

Also what's left in the car - is it stripped?

Mines running the rear ARB on stiffest, I'm on 205/50/15's running 26/28 when hot and to be honest the understeer has nearly completely gone
Last time I was at anglesey if I lifted slightly the bank end went straight out - it was like driving a 106/saxo again

Get your tracking checked too - I'm running -1.75 camber at the front and 10 minutes of toe out.
The toe out made a huge difference to turn in and removed some understeer but it's a bit "twitchy" above 110 now - not that that should matter on UK tracks lol

EDIT: I should also mention I run powerflex bushes all round at the front (wishbones, arb, and bottom engine mount), top engine mounts are Group N and I have solid top mounts with a pure motorsport strut brace

If you haven't got the strut brace & top mount combo - I'd definitely recommend checking the pure motorsport website
Value for money wise it's the 2nd best mod I've done after the whiteline ARB

 

[Adam G]

Tyres at 30 psi all round when hot, toe out 0.5 then understeer? What understeer?:rasp:
Me, Chip and Porkie were at Bedford a few weeks ago and nobody commented about understeer, in either of ours.
There'll always be a bit but you drive round it, maybe you are turning in just a tad early? Or play with your tyre settings to reduce it a bit if poss.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Oh yeah forgot my tyre pressures were on uniroyal rainsports PMSL I have to run them a bit lower just to get grip - I do find it helps running the rears a couple of psi harder than the fronts though if you're wanting a bit of LOOS

 

[Skeeter]

I've looked at the Pure top mount/strut brace combo and while good, it is expensive. Its more than the cost of a track day, and I'd rather have a car with a bit of understeer on track than a car without it sat on my drive

I think I'm going to work with what I have at the moment. Got lots of suggestions from here already. I will drop the pressures, get the alignment redone with a bit of toe out, and work on my driving style.

What will solid top mounts on their own give? Although there still rather expensive.

Oh, and the car still has a full interior. I'd love to strip it, but while I don't drive to work, I do use my car occasionally as 'a car' for moving people and stuff, so the interior has stayed. Its days may be numbered though, especially if some cheap bucket seats turn up.

 

[Cup_Phil]

I wouldn't bother with the top mounts then lol - the understeer will mostly be from the full interior

Too much weight over the rear and too much weight pushing you into the corners

Get the back seats out on the next day you do - it's only one bolt and they unclip and you can leave them in the pit garage. Makes a huge difference

 

[SamP]

Where abouts are you getting understeer? Just sounds like you're going in a bit too fast?

 

[Cooksport]

Give it something like a mm of toe out on the rear.

 

[Skeeter]

Get the back seats out on the next day you do - it's only one bolt and they unclip and you can leave them in the pit garage. Makes a huge difference

One bolt that I've already rounded off trying to get them out before . Might take a hacksaw to it.

Where abouts are you getting understeer? Just sounds like you're going in a bit too fast?

Initial turn in, which sounds like im going in to hot. The middle of the corner of I tighten the steering angle. And on the exit under power, which is to be expected and is easily managed once you learn how much throttle you can use. Sounds like my best bet is being smoother with my inputs, especially when turning in initially.

The skipping over bumps is annoying (most obvious on the edit of the Bank hairpin at Bedford), where a bump causes the front to 'bounce' wide a bit.

 

[SamP]

Could try adding some more rear camber as that normally helps turn in. Try looking at a Quaife/Gripper and you'll be able to get power down better from the apex onwards, expensive but IMO its worth it.

 

[Sir_Dave]

Just get some tuition, none of the suggestions re: mods are worthwhile if you are taking the wrong lines/braking at the wrong time.

My Trophy has always had a full interior, so that has little no bearing on understeer lol.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Just get some tuition, none of the suggestions re: mods are worthwhile if you are taking the wrong lines/braking at the wrong time.

My Trophy has always had a full interior, so that has little no bearing on understeer lol.

So why did you take it out and put a cage in?

 

[Dan519]

Ferodo Performance pads on the front, standards on the rear.

DS performance are essentially standard, or near enough. they're not a track pad, though reasonable on the road. (ran them on my mk1)

As already said, running stiffer front shocks will be making the understeer worse. Get some nice new cup rears to match. This can make the world of difference
You can probably afford to get closer to 2deg camber on the front, and give yourself a touch of toe out (20 mins is about spot on usually)
From there it's going to be technique

 

[Sir_Dave]

So why did you take it out and put a cage in?

I didnt, i put a half cage in, & left the rear seats in place so could still keep the boot useful. Even left the parcel shelf in ...