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The endless battle against Understeer



  Pug 206 SW, 172 CUP
When i was watching my dad go round in our 182 it was suprising how soft the standard springs seem to be but in practice it works well. The roll helps it c**k that rear wheel along with the way the suspension is setup to aid turn in and the softer springs with properly setup dampers help the front wheels get traction instead of skipping and then spinning away what you have. These things were the exact reason the old 16v was a favourite with autocar, why they rated it over the very stiffly sprung RS1800 and why all the clios since have been popular drivers cars. Its also why they ride reasonably well compared to other hot hatches. Renault have been very good at reducing understeer without ending up with something as angry and quick to bite the unwary in response to the throttle position as a certain very popular independent torsion bar rear setup. Don't be so quick to dial out what renault did in the first place. The car rolls at the track but it's not like your gonna fall out the seat like other cars i've driven.

I've always been a fan of getting a suspension package that includes settings that have been properly tested. I've had plenty of ball ache over the years with a mix and match approach. The times don't lie and i've been disappointed more than once dispite me thinking things were better. Less roll feels nicer in the car but it didn't initially give me a faster time in my first couple of cars and in several places i was actually a few mph slower at the end of straights due to bumpy surfaces and a lack of traction. Old airfields and hard suspension just don't go together!

The car i had before the clio was a honda CRX that was standard apart from some yoko A048R's. They made the car roll more than the standard tyres so we fitted some Eibach lowering springs before the next season. I went half a second faster but i think i was actually slower overall because the year before we had a nice fat head wind down the main straight and i was getting a good 5mph more. Made the car horrible to drive to and from events as well as CRX's aren't that soft to begin with :(

I'm not saying you should take it back to standard but maybe just tweek what you have (as it's a pretty standard upgrade route you've taken on here) with some settings that some of the more experienced on here can vouch will give you a solid base. You can then stop worrying about the car and concentrate on you. Then when your settled you'll be in a better position to confidently tweek the car to respond to your inputs if you still think it's not right or even ditch the clio if it's handling balance just isn't what you've been striving for.

Good luck its all a learning curve. Just do it the other way round to me so your driving is the first thing you sort! I could have had soooo much track time in place of the money i spent on mods over the last decade.
 
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I didnt, i put a half cage in, & left the rear seats in place so could still keep the boot useful. Even left the parcel shelf in ...

3096-seal-of-gay.png
 
  Ph2 Clio 172
DS performance are essentially standard, or near enough. they're not a track pad, though reasonable on the road. (ran them on my mk1)

As already said, running stiffer front shocks will be making the understeer worse. Get some nice new cup rears to match. This can make the world of difference
You can probably afford to get closer to 2deg camber on the front, and give yourself a touch of toe out (20 mins is about spot on usually)
From there it's going to be technique

But the Cup rears are the same as the standard cars, aren't they? Only the fronts are different. Which would make my setup the same as someone with a 172 Cup who has fitted Sportlines.

And I'm at the maximum camber I can get with the camber bolts, so getting any more will mean fitting something else. I don't know what I could fit that would do that without breaking the bank.
 
  Lionel Richie
you seem to be blaming the car, are you sure its not the organic control unit behind the wheel that's at fault?? ;)
 
  Ph2 Clio 172
you seem to be blaming the car, are you sure its not the organic control unit behind the wheel that's at fault?? ;)


Far from it. Well aware that my driving is likely a major cause. But hey, a bad workman always blames his fools.

EDIT: Tools, dam keyboard!
 
  Ph2 Clio 172
tyre pressures are at what?

32 to start with, dropped to 30. Didn't make any noticable difference but I have been told dropping the fronts a bit further would help? What you think?

182 cup and standard 182 rear shocks have different part numbers. Don't know what the difference actually is.

K Tec have 1 shock option for all 172's, and another for all 182's, suggesting the 172 and 172 Cup use the same shock?

Anyone know any more details?
 
  Lionel Richie
32 to start with, dropped to 30. Didn't make any noticable difference but I have been told dropping the fronts a bit further would help? What you think?



K Tec have 1 shock option for all 172's, and another for all 182's, suggesting the 172 and 172 Cup use the same shock?

Anyone know any more details?

yeah they're wrong ;)

mess with tyre pressures (when hot)
 
  172 Race Car
Id leave it as it was and get a tuition session next time. worth more than any mods you will do. if your not trail braking thats part of your problem.

Are you turning in on the brakes, on power or coasting? You said if you braked into the corner the abs would kick in, far too much brake, just needs a little to keep weight over the front wheels
 
  Ph2 Clio 172
Id leave it as it was and get a tuition session next time. worth more than any mods you will do. if your not trail braking thats part of your problem.

Are you turning in on the brakes, on power or coasting? You said if you braked into the corner the abs would kick in, far too much brake, just needs a little to keep weight over the front wheels

Coasting in usually, as I struggled to get turned in when staying on the brakes as the ABS would cut in (I assume as the inside wheels lost weight). Sounds like I am on them to hard so will try and work on that.

nope, part numbers are all different

Someone needs to tell K Tec, and also explain what exactly the differences are before I'm going to dump another £100 on them.
 
  172 Race Car
Coasting in usually, as I struggled to get turned in when staying on the brakes as the ABS would cut in (I assume as the inside wheels lost weight). Sounds like I am on them to hard so will try and work on that.
deffo get an instructor out with you, you should never coast,
 
  Lionel Richie
if you got straight back on the power you would've been fine, piff paff is much quicker than you think, you have to monster those curbs
 
  Ph2 Clio 172
It was wet, hence avoiding the curb (in the dry I'm all 4 wheels on them), and I went in way to fast and without any plan to recover from a slide (like you say Fred, applying power). Basically, I got cocky. I've only got cocky on track twice, both times I have spun as a result. There is a lesson to be learnt there I think :)

Back to the understeer, are there any significant differences between the cup and standard rear shocks that mean I should be looking to replace them? Or shall I go with the plan of fiddling with the alignment and tyre pressures and learning to drive properly first? :)
 
  WRX
I am totally confused TBH Skeeter, in my opinion for a FWD car, my Clio hardly suffers with understeer at all, I don't profess to be the best driver in the world but consider myself pretty quick and knowledgeable as my late Dad used to do some racing/hillclimbing/sprinting and taught me quite a bit. Watching your other video on youtube it did look as though you were turning in a bit too early, if you take it a touch later then the weight transfer will help turn in. I would say leave it as it is and get some tuition/advice on your next track day. As said I am not trying to say I am the world's best before anybody tries to shoot me down and this video isn't exactly a great example as I was just messing about a bit but you should see that mine hardly understeers and I wasn't using the best lines. Without sounding big headed a couple on other forums commented on how well mine was going. I paid for tuition before on this day as it all helps and the instructor was great showing me lines and mechanical sympathy etc.( I just left his advice in the pits on this session lol. ) And yes that's G172 in the MX5 in front.
http://youtu.be/bMahJxB_W60
 
  Ph2 Clio 172
Its by no means got massive understeer, not at all. Its grips really well. Its just got a bit more understeer than I was expecting, and it turns out this is likely due to a combination of unrealistic expectations on my part, and poor driving. A few tweaks to the alignment and some tuition is my plan.

And a Clio chasing an MX5 ey, I'd never do something like that (video proving otherwise incoming :))
 
  WRX
No the Focus RS was my target! He didn't get too far ahead if I do say so myself.:cool: Considering he's got at least another 50 horses even if standard I think.
 

MarkCup

ClioSport Club Member
I think you could do with slowing down your inputs...you were quite abrupt when you started the turn on the clip above...asking for a lot of turn before the tyre's properly loaded up will give the inevitable under steer.

Think of it like when you brake hard...jump straight on the pedal and the wheels will lock immediately as the weight of the car hasn't transferred. Smoothly press the pedal though, and by the time you're fully on the brakes you have the full weight of the car pressing the front tyres down.

I read somewhere once/think of it as 'hinting'...I.e. you've not started the turn in properly, but you've hinted to the car what you're about to do so have started the weight transfer process...then you can dial in some more lock and exploit the grip/weight transfer.
 
  Ph2 Clio 172
Yeah, I've been watching some more of the vids taken from the day and I am properly throwing it into some corners, far more than I realised. To much F1 2011 where my setup is always a pointy front end with loads of downforce. Slower and smoother inputs are definitely something I need to work on.

Theres a full run vid on my YouTube account too, plus 2 others from previous track days with different setups/tyres.
 
I watched your other video that you had put onto youtube earlier and thought exactly the same! You really are chucking it in on some occasions and I wouldn't expect road tyres even the trackday type to put up with those kind of inputs. If you are more progressive with the steering input, heel and toe and try trail braking it will make a massive difference. That is the massive advantage of video though, When I have been out on circuit I sometimes can't see what I'm doing wrong. Then when I watch the video back I just sit there and think what the hell was I doing lol! Tuition really is the best route to take and is a great investment IMO :)
 
Sounds like a plan mate and I always do that and then if I have an issue at the same circuit I go back to the video with the instructor and then compare them to find out what I'm doing wrong :)
 
  172 Race Car
Just watched one of your videos on YL. The car doesnt look that bad, but the big nut behind the wheel is terrible ;)

I'll echo the other comments, you are turning in far too early. Probably the biggest cause of your concern. Its a common mistake, a road driving habit. Took me a while to sort that one out. Your nowhere near the cones when you 'yank' on the steering wheel (another problem).

Also i think your sat too far away from the wheel, very outstreached arms

Dont go down more than one gear at a time as a general rule. use the engine braking

Thats all easy stuff to work on tbh. Having someone in the car would set u on the right track.

Come pick me up and i'll come with you to the next one ;)
 
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  Ph2 Clio 172
My position in relation to the wheel is unavoidable unfortunately. I am tall and large and I cant sit any closer as I then can't get my knees under the wheel. You can see the tops of my knees in some of the videos. A smaller aftermarket wheel with a bit more reach will allow me to move the seat 1 notch closer too so should solve that.

All you other points are perfectly valid though :)
 
  Ph2 Clio 172
I've checked Wests Renault and they, like K Tec, have the same part number for both the standard and cup 172 rear shocks?

Ive also uploaded another video of terrible driving for your entertainment :). Anyone know who the guy in the blue Clio with the Renault Sport plates is?

 
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  Ph2 Clio 172
The Waaheey was my mate in the passenger seat. We had been taking the micky out of him saying he was going to end up dead in a ball of fire in his MX5 because it was wet, and then I went straight out and did that! :)
 
  Lionel Richie
balls up on the renault system

rear shocks 172 cup - 8200681125 (same as 182 cup)
rear shocks 172 - 8200662257
 
  182
So what is the physical differences between them?

a different piston valve design?

Lots of advice given on your driving and I feel that is rather strange, glad you have taken it well! You must know what you want your car to do to go faster, surely? :approve:

Since it's become the topic can I give my opinion? I'm gonna go against the grain here, I know, but I think your lines are fundamentally right!

In my, very humble, opinion you will be quicker sticking to your lines than taking the usual trackday lines. The slow-in fast-out technique is not the absolute quickest way around - you racers know that so don't say otherwise!. The problem seems to me that you drive like I do on computer games- you know the right line to be quick and are aiming to get to the apex as quick as possible. In the games, or karting at your local track, you can practice until you get the balance perfect at the apex to turn the car precisely with full comitment and confidence at the last minute, but the clio just dosn't quite have the right balance to make it work from what I've seen.

I'm not saying you won't benefit from tuition, and you perhaps should try turning in later, but I think your line on turn in is better than most I've seen on trackdays... you just need to be more confident and consistent on the brake and work on gentle steering inputs.
 
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