Ph1 172 Track Car. Next Year I Go Racing - Hopefully!

[Mini182]

2 coats! More weight lol.

Looks good but I just couldn't live with white due to cleaning. I'd have gone for a silver/grey personally.

Yeah I know what you mean. I would have preferred grey myself. The white looks great now but it is a b**ch to keep clean.

White is much easier to spray and get a good finish compared to grey though, and as I am not a professional sprayer I thought white was the best choice.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Yeah that's a fair point, you'd need lacquer on the grey.

 

[boomerbang2006]

Cant wait to go and watch you racing....ive got the road going odyssey....and an aluminium bonnet in silver too.!!!

 

[Mini182]

Fuel System Upgrade

Right I decided to re do the fuel system for a couple of reason's and I wanted to do the job properly, no half measures.

Going to be using all stainless steel braided lines and AN6 connectors throughout.

Teflon ss line anywhere inside the cab and rubber ss in the engine bay.

Also fitting a 1.5ltr swirl pot and bosch 044 fuel pimp and filter.



Collection of bits. I have already made a start on making the hoses as you can see.

Bosch 044 Fuel pump, filter and cradle.

Teflon stainless braided fuel line

Rubber stainless braided fuel line.

And if you haven't made up braided lines before like I hadn't it is quite easy. These are all the tools you will need.

 

[sonny172cup]

Looking good, was you suffering from fuel starvation last season at all?

 

[Mini182]

Looking good, was you suffering from fuel starvation last season at all?

No I wasn't mate, but's that's because I never let it go less than 1/2 tank.

This way I can run it right down (saving weight) and always have a reliable fuel supply.

 

[dinger]

Are you mounting the pump and swirl pot in the wheel well James?

 

[Mini182]

Are you mounting the pump and swirl pot in the wheel well James?

No passenger side mate, why?

 

[dinger]

It needs to in an enclosure mate, and cant be in the driver area.
Best place is the wheel well then a sealed plate over the top

 

[sonny172cup]

No I wasn't mate, but's that's because I never let it go less than 1/2 tank.

This way I can run it right down (saving weight) and always have a reliable fuel supply.

Ok makes sense mate.

 

[dinger]

Ok makes sense mate.

I wouldnt want to sit next to that lot, lol

 

[Mini182]

I wouldnt want to sit next to that lot, lol

I had a similar thought pattern Dave, except mine went - 'I don't really want that lot behind me'!

 

[Mini182]

It needs to in an enclosure mate, and cant be in the driver area.
Best place is the wheel well then a sealed plate over the top

Are you sure about that Dave? I have seen race cars with pumps and swirl pots inside the car before with no enclosure.

 

[Mini182]

Taken from the 2015 MSA blue book

5.13.1. Have any fuel lines passing through the driver/passenger compartment protected and, if non-metallic, to be internally or externally metal braided hydraulic pressure hose or fuel lines complying with FIA specifications.

5.13.2. They may only be joined by screwed sealing joints or vehicle manufacturers approved joint.

5.13.3. If fitted with fuel fillers in a closed boot, or under closure, have collector/spill trays incorporated to drain outside the vehicle.

5.13.4. Use Pump Fuel (see definition Nomenclature and Definitions) except, subject to prior written authority having been given by the MSA, where permitted otherwise under event SRs, and Championship Regulations. Where Authority for FIA specification fuel is given by the MSA the fuel must be in compliance with FIA Appendix J Article 252, Article 9

5.13.5. If using LPG, the entire system must conform with Construction and Use regulations and LPG Industry Technical Association Code of Practice No. 11.

5.13.6. If using non-pump fuel have a 3 inch diameter ‘Day-Glo’ orange disc affixed immediately adjacent to the Competition Numbers on both sides.

5.13.7. With the exception of cars competing in Sprint and Hill Climb road going production category, cars competing in British and MSA Titled Championships for, and all new build cars for, Rallycross, Car Racing, Special Stage Rallying, Sprints and Hill Climbs must be equipped with the facility to enable a fuel sample to be taken. For fuel injected cars the facility must be a dry break fuel sampling coupling, approved by the FIA, Competitors must carry and make available a 300mm minimum length of hose to which, where necessary, the appropriate mating part is to be attached.

5.13.8. Have sufficient fuel for a fuel test (D.34) present at any time during the event.



The way I interpret that lot is providing I use stainless steel braided line and AN6 fittings (which I am doing) it is ok to have fuel lines in the passenger compartment.

And there is no mention of needing filters/pumps or swirl pots to be enclosed or that they can't be in the passenger compartment.

I don't want to be doing this twice so any advice would be appreciated.

 

[Tony Hunter]

James, we were told when we built ours by a scrutineer (rightly or wrongly), that we needed to enclose it (the swirl pot) as it's classed as a secondary fuel cell.
Hence why ours is in the spare wheel well. I have seen them fitted underneath the car too.

 

[dinger]

14.
1.2.
Fuel
(a)
Fuel Tanks and Pipes
–
every effort should be made to isolate fuel tanks and pipes from the
driver/passenger compartment. The risk of fuel
spillage from accident damage can be reduced by
use of bag type tanks or by coating metal tanks
withGRP. Tanks should be located so that they
are given maximum protection by the structure of
the vehicle. Vents should be designed to avoid
spillage if the vehicle becomes inverted


Above is in the generall safety section, The blue book is not a step by step guide to building a race car and just because it doesnt say you cant do it, doesnt mean you can,
A scrutineer would frown upon any kind of fuel tank in the driver area unless that was the last resort and would want to see as much protection as possible,

I'd have a re think mate just to be on the safe side, and remember a fuel pipe join whether it be hose clip or fitting has the potential to leak. Minimise the risk and all scrutineers will be happy

 

[Tony Hunter]

Thats why we didn't flat floor the rear.

 

[dinger]

Infact, Andrew was asking me the same question Saturday night as he wanted to fit a 182 boot floor

 

[Mini182]

Interesting, thanks for the input guys, sounds like the best bet is to put it all in the wheel well, then cover it over with a aluminium panel or something. Dammit, that means I will need to buy more fuel line!

Dave from that regulation '(every effort should be made to isolate fuel tanks and pipes from the driver/passenger compartment)' it appears they are advising not to run internal lines at all? Seems silly to me as I thought internal lines were much safer than external ones as they are less likely to be ripped off the car.

Also if they regard the swirl pot as a fuel cell then why do you need to enclose it? Fuel cells don't need to be enclosed, do they? They are enclosure themselves aren't they?

 

[dinger]

All fuel lines that run through the car should be PTFE lined, This is because rubber lined hoses weep fumes, in an enclosed space this is dangerous as its the vapour that actually ignites, not the fuel
I'd much rather have a fire on the outside of the car than the inside
Any fuel tank that is situated inside the car needs to have a crushable zone no smaller than 10mm, A swirl pot is classed as a fuel tank so if it is inside the car then it needs to have this "crushable" structure,
By putting it in the wheel well and covering it you have just created a "crushable" structure Bingo! LOL
A fuel cell is designed in its entirety to have a 10mm crushable outer layer, which means it can be placed anywhere inside the car

As for the safety of fuel lines running through the car, Its not ideal, but the true reason for running these is to minmise the risk of fuel line fracture when running kerbs, Not actually a safety reason but to ensure that any excursion off the track wont damage the car enough to stop it from finishing the race

 

[Mini182]

Nice one that all makes sense to me, cheers Dave.

All the lines inside the car were going to be PTFE Teflon anyway, so that's sorted. Looks like I just need to modify my plan slightly and fit the swirl pot, pump and filter in the spare wheel well instead, then make an aluminium sheet to cover it over.

Sometimes I love this forum, if I hadn't posted up I would have just carried on and then had to re do it all at a later date. Cheers guys :up:

 

[Nafoff]

Hi chap, can you tell me who built/fitted your cage.
or what cage it is.

Cheers Neil

 

[Mini182]

Hi chap, can you tell me who built/fitted your cage.
or what cage it is.

Cheers Neil

I have pm'd you mate.

 

[dinger]

Nice one that all makes sense to me, cheers Dave.

All the lines inside the car were going to be PTFE Teflon anyway, so that's sorted. Looks like I just need to modify my plan slightly and fit the swirl pot, pump and filter in the wheel well instead, then make an aluminium sheet to cover it over.

Sometime I love this forum, if I hadn't posted up I would have just carried on and then had to re do it all at a later date. Cheers guys :up:

And I dont think you would of got that from the any other "club" competitors mate. I think this is what makes the TA so appealing as we are all in it for the same reasons.

The blue book is so open to perception and doing something to "satisfy" the book is so difficult to get right.

Try building a KIt car mate, The blue book is a kids comic compared to an IVA manual

 

[Mini182]

That's the way it should be, we are all there to have a good time and go racing, and if we can help each other out we should.

The TA lot are all a friendly bunch and I'm glad I decided to race with you guys.

 

[Pauleds]

I am looking at using alloy pipe for my fuel line rather than braided. I was quite surprised to see how expensive braided is now since the last time I used it.
Haven't you got enough room to mount a swirl pot under the bonnet?

 

[dinger]

I am looking at using alloy pipe for my fuel line rather than braided. I was quite surprised to see how expensive braided is now since the last time I used it.
Haven't you got enough room to mount a swirl pot under the bonnet?

Thats what you need,,,, 1.5 litres of fuel in the engine bay!!!!!!!!

 

[Mini182]

I am looking at using alloy pipe for my fuel line rather than braided. I was quite surprised to see how expensive braided is now since the last time I used it.
Haven't you got enough room to mount a swirl pot under the bonnet?

Yeah braided line is expensive, but it's good stuff! Nothing wrong with using alloy fuel line though I don't think.

I know you can get bulkhead mounted swirl pots, but didn't fancy having a large amount of extra fuel in the engine bay.

 

[Pauleds]

Weight over the wheels.
Proper tank and fittings, no danger.
Had no problems when I rallycrossed with a 4ltr tank and inbuilt pump I made for my 205.

 

[Mini182]

Weight over the wheels.
Proper tank and fittings, no danger.
Had no problems when I rallycrossed with a 4ltr tank and inbuilt pump I made for my 205.

I'm sure it would be ok if done properly mate, I just didn't fancy it.

 

[Pauleds]

Looking at the proper hose and fittings you have bought, I wouldn't have any issues with fitting one under the bonnet.
Can even have issues with wheel well mounted pot. You can have a leak and fill the wheel well and have that sloshing around during a race, and even that can get warm with the exhaust near it.
Just an option.

 

[NorthloopCup]

@Mini182 not wishing to piss on your chips, but the -6 feed from your swirl pot to the 044 ain't big enough. You need a -10 feed in to it as they flow more fuel than the -6 can supply. It'll starve the pump otherwise. Been there done that.

 

[Mini182]

@Mini182 not wishing to piss on your chips, but the -6 feed from your swirl pot to the 044 ain't big enough. You need a -10 feed in to it as they flow more fuel than the -6 can supply. It'll starve the pump otherwise. Been there done that.

It's a return system to a swirl pot so the pump will never run out of fuel supply.

AN6 fittings will be absolutely fine with this install.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Yep so was this mate. Hi flow in tank pump to the swirl pot and originally a -6 feed to the 044. -10 in this picture. Because it used to starve the pump.

 

[Mini182]

I've seen plenty of installs use these pumps with -6 fittings with no problems at all.

You can buy made up swirl pot setups which use -6 or -8 fittings with twin 044 pump setups.

AN10 would be serious overkill in this situation.

 

[NorthloopCup]

I've seen plenty of installs use these pumps with -6 fittings with no problems at all.

You can buy made up swirl pot setups which use -6 or -8 fittings with twin 044 pump setups.

AN10 would be serious overkill in this situation.

Fair enough mate. Just going off my own personal experience. The 044 is also overkill in this install though tbh.

 

[Mini182]

Fair enough mate. Just going off my own personal experience. The 044 is also overkill in this install though tbh.

Maybe so, but It came up at a good price and they are great pumps, if a little noisy.

They are happy supplying a 100bhp motor or a 400bhp motor.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Maybe so, but It came up at a good price and they are great pumps, if a little noisy.

They are happy supplying a 100bhp motor or a 400bhp motor.

Yeah 044's are awesome bits of kit, I'll agree wholeheartedly with you on that one.

 

[Mini182]

Dropped the fuel tank out in order to better route the braided lines that are going to feed the swirl pot under the car to the spare wheel well, this is now where the swirl pot setup will fit.

Also gave me a good opportunity to give the tank a clean and check over.

Swirl pot and bosch pump/filter setup mounted on a piece of aluminium ready to be bolted in place. I have also got a second cradle coming to mount the pump/filter a bit more securely.

Where it will sit.

 

[sonny172cup]

Coming on nicely mate.