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KAM Racing - go silly or dont bother project build



Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
There were problems with every mounting point including the engine bay so it was time to make a choice. You could weld everything that can be seen. This would most likely get the car through scrutineering. As Cameron pointed out. As a driver you would know. Could you even drive at 100% knowing the chassis had a flaw?
The financial impact of sorting this correctly would be a lot but safety cannot have a price.
SL_EDIT-71.jpg
 

Daz...

ClioSport Club Member
  Inferno 182 Cup
? That’s disgraceful. Very lucky you spotted it before getting any further into the build.
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
But you end up with a bare shell again with a few more holes than before.

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Of course we could have now gone and bought an off the shelf cage. Theres no Homologated T45 cages available for the Peugeot 205 so its pointless using it. You cannot use the reduced wall thickness to save the weight without the certification so you end up with a more expensive cage practically the same weight as a CDS cage.
So Cameron and I had a powwow. There were a number of things I didnt like. Notably the B pillar hoop. It needed to be further back to give more space for the drivers seat and move weight backwards. We also talked about how we could go lighter. The previous cage was a full Group A Safety Devices cage. We needed to have a cage strong but were any additional bars were giving a diminishing structural return.
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
? That’s disgraceful. Very lucky you spotted it before getting any further into the build.

Absolutely. Unfortunately its been too long to go back to the original company that welded the cage and kick up a stink. Secondly the trust is broken. Could I rely on them to rectify? So I have to bite my lip move forward and earn more money to pay for it. Its put a complete spanner in the plans. We were at that point discussing a rather clever rear suspension setup but this killed the budget for that. We've had to simplify to try to reel back some budget.
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
Ouch, I think I'd've been kicking some b****cks.
I nearly did but the potential fallout and damage to a number of current business relationships stopped me from bringing up the past. Its complicated lol

Thank f*** we spotted this now due to a simple issue of ride height. If I had decided to run the chassis higher we would never have cut the back out and the cage would not have had the level of scrutiny its now had. Imagine failing scutineering next year with the build done and dusted!
 
  406 V6, Race Buggy
I had something similar once where we had to clean the paint off the rear stays and cross on someones cage/spaceframe to weld some brackets on for an oil cooler for them - he'd brung it in because he kept killing engines and wasn't running any gauges/logging - 140*c after 10 minutes of running is not good...

Anyway, turns out the entire rear stays and cross were made out of cheap ERW tube - the guy that had installed it originally had just bought the bent hoops from a firm and then made all the straight bits himself out of exhaust tube. Ended up chopping half the car to pieces.
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
Now we had a naked car again.
Cameron got cracking on the arches. The rear tubbed arches are not totally straightforward as the wheel moves forwards in its arc by a few centimetres. It took two attempts to get it perfect with plenty of wheel clearance. The first attempt was good but good enough is not always acceptable in Camerons eyes!

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To something a bit more solid

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sneak peak - theres some progress on a new cage. But I'll backtrack a little...
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
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The Safety Devices cage was old school with smaller diameter tubing to what is now used. Moving to all the new standards we've got the diagonals on the door. The diagonals would be welded to the X-bracing rather than a straight bar to the floor as this gives more clearance around the steering wheel. To save weight the rear brace between the arches will be the harness mounting point as well.
Here the front suspension mounting link up is not worked out due to the complexity of working out the design around the engine and components.
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
Maybe get Satchell Engineering involved for the rear setup?

I've talked with Colin about his setup in detail. Its certainly lighter by removing the rear beam but his PB times have not been beaten with the lighter car. He says it was a fun project to do but its not worth making again.

The reasoning could be a few things but Camerons done some rough calculations on whats needed for us and thinks there may be some flexing in his setup when cornering loads are high. I would have liked the beam to go so we have more exhaust clearance but its workable whatever.


Before the cage issue we were intending to run a different setup entirely but thats now out of budget for phase 1. Maybe if we do a second season of Time Attack we can evolve the car more but if its fast enough we'll probably leave it!
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
30120852_10160142199505231_752512425_n.jpg


Heres a good picture to show how much we've moved the cage back vs an off-the-shelf rollcage. I can keep my seat nice and far back and run a floor mounted pedal box with ease.
 
  406 V6, Race Buggy
I do have a full CAD file for a semi-trailing arm version of the rear beam that uses standard mounting points for regs complaince somewhere if it's helpful, albeit for my old 306 rather than a 205/309 setup, I did it years ago but never got around to making/fitting it - I might still have the mockup beam upstairs somewhere actually.
It's nothing particularly fancy but gives a little adjustability and is a good 10kg lighter and stiffer than the OE beam and arms.
The inboard links do give less room for exhaust and rear diffusers though unfortunately, and it doesn't really solve the motion ratio issues.
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
I do have a full CAD file for a semi-trailing arm version of the rear beam that uses standard mounting points for regs complaince somewhere if it's helpful, albeit for my old 306 rather than a 205/309 setup, I did it years ago but never got around to making/fitting it - I might still have the mockup beam upstairs somewhere actually.
It's nothing particularly fancy but gives a little adjustability and is a good 10kg lighter and stiffer than the OE beam and arms.
The inboard links do give less room for exhaust and rear diffusers though unfortunately.

OHHH!
 
  406 V6, Race Buggy
I'll dig it out, I think it's in my old OneCNC stuff. It's easy and cheap to make so might be an intermediate step until you make something shinier.
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
Recap time. We have to turn to the engine as thats a rather important component apparently. Now most people will fit a Peugeot engine because simples, but I think they are all a bit s**t for tuning - sue me!
My favourite handling 205 has always been the XS, with a lightweight and small TU 8v engine. The XU engines push the weight bias towards the front heavily - expecially the 16v. The Peugeot 309 coped better as it had more of a butt. Looking at the pictures you can see theres really not a lot of weight to the shell. Two people could carry it!

Now a few people have done Honda conversions and yes the engines are massively superior and parts are easy to get hold of to boost power but its been done. Theres a 205 running a Honda K20 turbo engine already. Its a tall engine and not really light so.

We looked at the rotary. Its very square so its not going to have its weight tilted over the front axle, but its COG is massively low. Its also relatively easy to make power, sounds cool and can spit big flames. Yes big flames was one of the criteria lol

So FWD rotary. Err thats been done hasn't it?
Lots of drag racers have been FWD but they tend to stick the engine out the front in the same orientation as the original RX7
Someone apparently made a civic with one with a K20 gearbox so we got a low mileage gearbox for £300

This is where the problems start. Theres no mounting points for engine mounts on a 13b. With a bit of head scratching we found the 12a engines had front mounting points and so eBay came up trumps. This meant the sump wouldnt fit so we'll have to make one.

Heres a bracket made for the 12a - We'd need something similar
Large-b60d0c26-d907-4dd1-bb66-c990c77142cb.jpg
That issue solved in theory

Cameron downloaded a CAD model for the engine and got to work. He figured we would need something like this

070218-adaptor plate initial.png


but the gearbox would need a little chopping :D
chop chop.jpg
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
230218.jpg


This is how the engine will sit. Not too dissimilar to the TU engine. More than I had expected but I had never realised how square the block is till I got one physically. Should be alright though hopefully. Maybe a tad more polar inertia but the packaging of a radiator and intercooler will determine that so not one to worry about yet.
 
  406 V6, Race Buggy
Our gearbox had fun with the angle grinder for the starter motor too :D

Although I put the mounts for the starter on the adaptor plate because it was easy, should have gone the whole hog and welded the box up to put it on there as it was a pig removing the engine every time it went pop.
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
I guess I benefit from better access when it comes to removing the gearbox! Though I'm not totally sure clearance with the subframe its going to be a pig of a job dropping the front suspension. Rule of racing this - dont blow up the gearbox trackside...
 

massiveCoRbyn

ClioSport Club Member
  Several
This is brilliant. I mean, it's also slightly ridiculous, but in a brilliant way.

What kind of engine spec are you going for?
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
This is brilliant. I mean, it's also slightly ridiculous, but in a brilliant way.

What kind of engine spec are you going for?

The beauty of the rotary is its all so simple, Just add a big turbo :D The plan is to half bridge or do a full bridgeport because of the noise and the flames. It'll spool up the turbo nice and fast too. Not needed but race car flames are always cool! Looking at an EFR8374 with internal wastegate (although I wont have the low boost options external wastegates will give, the pipework will be simpler) Should make at least 500bhp :D
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
Cameron was pretty pleased with how it was looking. I decided we needed to double check clearance in what I deemed the most critical area.
Then....
1459258942-steps-tragedy-dance.jpg
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
Tragedy! Unlike Steps, we couldnt smile!
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People not skim reading will have noted Cameron got a CAD drawing of the 13b off the internets.
Well turns out whoever made it had the engine width incorrect by 50mm. The driveshaft runs pretty much in front of the exhaust ports. This means you cannot get a good radius bend for the manifold behind the driveshaft. A schoolboy error to not check and a real setback but s**t happens. What next?

As much as I love drawing on my white board. The solutions to routing the exhaust were not looking good. We would need an ovalled tube to clear round the driveshaft and a smaller bore than I'd like and silly angles. I started to stress about the high temperatures this would create with a bridgeported engine. Coffee failed to come up with a clever eureka moment.

Time to accept that after 4 weeks of wait you've made a rather nice billet book end. Lets visit the PhillipM school of making things and make it twice :p 13degrees of extra rotation and the driveshafts would run between the inlet and exhaust manifolds. About where I thought we'd have to run them in the first place lol Maybe we will have a few issues with gearbox oil when braking hard but I think its not so critical than when its under more load. Should have clearance still for the steering rack which was a bit of a concern.

Thats given some time to patch up all the little holes in the chassis but next week we should start on building the front suspension.
 

massiveCoRbyn

ClioSport Club Member
  Several
I love this build, but the OCD nutter in me would have to clean up all that metal work on the shell lol.
 

haimsey

ClioSport Club Member
  ph2 172
Will be following this, love a proper build thread! I remember seeing Cam’s original 205 build and being amazed!
 

Cookson

ClioSport Club Member
  Mk1 Audi TT 3.2 V6
This looks awesome. I can only imagine how nuts a rotary powered 205 is going to look/sound
 
  406 V6, Race Buggy
Sorry Kev, you have to remake it 3 times before you can join my certified bodge it 'n' scarper course.
If you're using the stock box and not a clicky box in the Honda format, might be worth just looking at popping a spray bar in the 'box if you're that worried about it.
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
I love this build, but the OCD nutter in me would have to clean up all that metal work on the shell lol.

It had been acid dipped to reveal all its sins. Been fine in storage but despite being trailered on a dry day, the winter road crud was bad! With the amount of welding required bare metal was best. It'll get built up and completed, then fully stripped down, blasted and painted. I fancy doing a time lapse video for the final build lol
 

Kev@KAM

ClioSport Trader
  Badass Toyota
Sorry Kev, you have to remake it 3 times before you can join my certified bodge it 'n' scarper course.
If you're using the stock box and not a clicky box in the Honda format, might be worth just looking at popping a spray bar in the 'box if you're that worried about it.

Damn! Only on the second design of the front suspension too! Theres still time though lol
Spray bar could work nicely. I'm not massively worried. The gearboxes are common enough and cheap its not worth upgrading unless it breaks.
I fancy the Elite Transmissions lug gearset but thats a chunk of money. Business will need a boost to pay!
 
  406 V6, Race Buggy
Can't say I'm a big fan of the Elite stuff, but it is improving. I'd rather save the extra and just go Sadev.
 


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