HR Coilover set up

[leeroybrown]

Can anyone tell me what the best chamber set up is for a 182 running HR's

Also what thr height should be at the front and rear?

 

[Dan R]

Im running 1.5 deg neg. Theres no real need to run more on the road as youll never reach levels of grip on the road to need to run say 2 or 3 deg neg. (Youll actually have less of the tyre on the road runnin more neg camber!) Some people think that by running massive camber makes the car handle better and turn in better but thats not necessarly the case! Road tyres will never produce high enough levels of grip on the road to need that much camber! all it will do is wear the tyres out quicker. If your usin it on the track with slicks then yes run more but you definately dont need to on the road. ive had it proved to me!

As for height. dont go really really low cos youll do more harm than good. needs to have rake which means the front sits slightly lower to increase the weight over the front wheels and improve turn in and help with less understeer. hope this helps.

 

[Daniel]

Im running 1.5 deg neg. Theres no real need to run more on the road as youll never reach levels of grip on the road to need to run say 2 or 3 deg neg. (Youll actually have less of the tyre on the road runnin more neg camber!) Some people think that by running massive camber makes the car handle better and turn in better but thats not necessarly the case! Road tyres will never produce high enough levels of grip on the road to need that much camber! all it will do is wear the tyres out quicker. If your usin it on the track with slicks then yes run more but you definately dont need to on the road. ive had it proved to me!

As for height. dont go really really low cos youll do more harm than good. needs to have rake which means the front sits slightly lower to increase the weight over the front wheels and improve turn in and help with less understeer. hope this helps.

That sir, was awesome advice!

(i'm waiting to have mine set up!)

 

[TheJesus]

just take it somewhere where they know what they are doing and just let them loose with it and see what they come up with. I left it with Pro Drive and it came back with negative 2.3 degrees of camber, so I guess different suspension tuners have different opinions on what you can and cant get away with on the road. I dont think mine's overly cambered, in fact I think it could do with some more if anything... negative 3 would be interesting lol

 

[Dan R]

just take it somewhere where they know what they are doing and just let them loose with it and see what they come up with. I left it with Pro Drive and it came back with negative 2.3 degrees of camber, so I guess different suspension tuners have different opinions on what you can and cant get away with on the road. I dont think mine's overly cambered, in fact I think it could do with some more if anything... negative 3 would be interesting lol

But like i said! youll never reach anywhere near the levels of grip on standard road tyres to need 3 deg neg camber.

 

[Dan R]

Im running 1.5 deg neg. Theres no real need to run more on the road as youll never reach levels of grip on the road to need to run say 2 or 3 deg neg. (Youll actually have less of the tyre on the road runnin more neg camber!) Some people think that by running massive camber makes the car handle better and turn in better but thats not necessarly the case! Road tyres will never produce high enough levels of grip on the road to need that much camber! all it will do is wear the tyres out quicker. If your usin it on the track with slicks then yes run more but you definately dont need to on the road. ive had it proved to me!

As for height. dont go really really low cos youll do more harm than good. needs to have rake which means the front sits slightly lower to increase the weight over the front wheels and improve turn in and help with less understeer. hope this helps.

That sir, was awesome advice!

(i'm waiting to have mine set up!)

Cheers.

 

[Dan R]

Can anyone tell me what the best chamber set up is for a 182 running HR's

Also what thr height should be at the front and rear?

Take it to powerstation where i had mine done.

 

[leeroybrown]

I aint travelling all over the world lol

No body seems to recommend anyone in the North East

 

[TheJesus]

just take it somewhere where they know what they are doing and just let them loose with it and see what they come up with. I left it with Pro Drive and it came back with negative 2.3 degrees of camber, so I guess different suspension tuners have different opinions on what you can and cant get away with on the road. I dont think mine's overly cambered, in fact I think it could do with some more if anything... negative 3 would be interesting lol

But like i said! youll never reach anywhere near the levels of grip on standard road tyres to need 3 deg neg camber.

well, I wont really know without trying. I'm all for the theory behind it, but it's just opinion at the end of the day. Some people think mine's overly cambered, personally I disagree having driven it, but having never driven it on neg 3 with road tyres I'd not really say one way or the other if it's too much, it's better to try it for yourself

 

[TheJesus]

I aint travelling all over the world lol

No body seems to recommend anyone in the North East

how about North West? Place that did mine are only in Stockport (near Manchester), Chris n Nic have used em before.

 

[leeroybrown]

Any address mate?

 

[Dan R]

But like i said! youll never reach anywhere near the levels of grip on standard road tyres to need 3 deg neg camber.

well, I wont really know without trying. I'm all for the theory behind it, but it's just opinion at the end of the day. Some people think mine's overly cambered, personally I disagree having driven it, but having never driven it on neg 3 with road tyres I'd not really say one way or the other if it's too much, it's better to try it for yourself

Thats what was proved to me. Its not opinion its just the fact that the more camber you run the more the outer of the tyre is goin to be off the floor and you will never be reaching the levels of grip on the road for the wheels to be forced straight which would allow the whole of the tyre surface to be in contact with the road. on a track on slicks yes but not doin 40 round a roundabout! its not goin to happen

 

[franx]

running too much camber is going to make your car not so nice on the straights, mind this..

(you'll be doing everyday driving a lot wo'nt you ? too much camber will irritate after a while cause you're car will start "searching" ; wanting to blast through curvywirly's )

please post up your experience as i'll be fitting my H&Rs' soon to my 172 Cup.

Oh yeh, i remember reading about them being sent in the box already set at their recommended ride-height so first trie that setup !!

 

[TheJesus]

I dont know about fact Daniel san, sounds more like opinion being passed off as fact to me, as surely this is all entirely dependent on the suspension and dampening? If a car is stiffly sprung to the point there is no body roll then with such little weight transfer then I can see why you wouldn't need a great deal of camber, but as mine leans like a t**t (even though it's on coilovers) I'd hazard a guess that the full tyre is in the contact patch the way it has been setup. Fair play if this is what the experts say, but tbh I tend to go and try things for myself most of the time, as one expert once told me you cant get anymore power from a Williams re-worked head and as such is pointless... however I've also seen dyno proven 13bhp gains from a Williams head from back to back testing... When I got mine done they got me to take it for a drive and see what I thought and they had played around with only negative 1 degrees of camber but thought it wasn't enough, my old tyres would probably agree with the level of uneven wear where the tyre was leaning right over (my work trip is mainly right hand turns only... at speed)

 

[leeroybrown]

anyone else have suggestions?

 

[Peperami]

Am running 3degree neg camber front, drives fine at high speed (far more planted than any other clio ive driven), both straight and twisties, and no harder to drive around town than standard set-up.

Having not driven my car, how can you say this is too much camber dan?

You seem to do this a lot, spout opinion as fact.

 

[Peperami]

Leeroy - i know countless people with 2 degree camber for a road set-up, with the tyres sitting just touching the arches. Go for that as a ballpark figure for camber/ height mate.

 

[Dan R]

I dont know about fact Daniel san, sounds more like opinion being passed off as fact to me, as surely this is all entirely dependent on the suspension and dampening? If a car is stiffly sprung to the point there is no body roll then with such little weight transfer then I can see why you wouldn't need a great deal of camber, but as mine leans like a tw*t (even though it's on coilovers) I'd hazard a guess that the full tyre is in the contact patch the way it has been setup. Fair play if this is what the experts say, but tbh I tend to go and try things for myself most of the time, as one expert once told me you cant get anymore power from a Williams re-worked head and as such is pointless... however I've also seen dyno proven 13bhp gains from a Williams head from back to back testing... When I got mine done they got me to take it for a drive and see what I thought and they had played around with only negative 1 degrees of camber but thought it wasn't enough, my old tyres would probably agree with the level of uneven wear where the tyre was leaning right over (my work trip is mainly right hand turns only... at speed)

You mean what gdi andy the god of the world told you more like!!!!!

 

[Fred@BTM]

John which prodrive site did you use, you've told me before but i can't remember!

 

[d4ve86]

What are you going to use the car for? If its just road then the set up will be different to that if you asked for a road/track set up or a track set up. It comes down to what you what the car set up for and then the company that you take it to use there knowledge to set up the car to your requirements.

My 182 runs about 2.5 -ve at the front, id like to get a camber guage and change it to try different set up's but most time's you make a change you change the toe setting, which is something I cant change myself.

'some people' on here have biased views and having looked at so many threads with 'some people' arguing about rubbish or the same topic again and again its best to find a garages who can do the work and have a chat with them about the setup you want. maybe there is a clio race team near you who can offer some advice or a motorsport merchanic

 

[Fred@BTM]

exactly what someone tells you on a forum isn't gospel!

but ask middo how accurate i am at setting clios up by eye!

 

[leeroybrown]

Would love to come to yours Fred but your miles away lol

 

[TheJesus]

I dont know about fact Daniel san, sounds more like opinion being passed off as fact to me, as surely this is all entirely dependent on the suspension and dampening? If a car is stiffly sprung to the point there is no body roll then with such little weight transfer then I can see why you wouldn't need a great deal of camber, but as mine leans like a tw*t (even though it's on coilovers) I'd hazard a guess that the full tyre is in the contact patch the way it has been setup. Fair play if this is what the experts say, but tbh I tend to go and try things for myself most of the time, as one expert once told me you cant get anymore power from a Williams re-worked head and as such is pointless... however I've also seen dyno proven 13bhp gains from a Williams head from back to back testing... When I got mine done they got me to take it for a drive and see what I thought and they had played around with only negative 1 degrees of camber but thought it wasn't enough, my old tyres would probably agree with the level of uneven wear where the tyre was leaning right over (my work trip is mainly right hand turns only... at speed)

You mean what gdi andy the god of the world told you more like!!!!!

erm, no actually, as Andy's only ever touched the coilovers to raise them up a bit. As for the headwork thing that was Andy's neighbour accross the road that told me that. Different tuners have different opinions on things though, there's no real right or wrong, just what works and what doesn't and imo it's totally dependent on the kit your using... common sense really, but if you want to suck off AST or whoever it is you use then fair enough, just dont have the arrogance and ignorance to pass off what is your opinion as fact, as it's just misleading to other users on here if they take this as the gospel according to Dan. I'd certainly never tell people 1.5 is the max you can and should run, because that only applies to the shocks you are being sold, not every set on the market.

Fred - it's Pro Sport not Pro Drive, keep getting confused with all these Subaru places that sound the same lol. They are based in Stockport and mainly do Scoobs and Evo's, but are very thorough, they spent all day on my car setting it up for me.

 

[MarkM]

Im running 1.5 deg neg. Theres no real need to run more on the road as youll never reach levels of grip on the road to need to run say 2 or 3 deg neg. (Youll actually have less of the tyre on the road runnin more neg camber!) Some people think that by running massive camber makes the car handle better and turn in better but thats not necessarly the case! Road tyres will never produce high enough levels of grip on the road to need that much camber! all it will do is wear the tyres out quicker. If your usin it on the track with slicks then yes run more but you definately dont need to on the road. ive had it proved to me!

As for height. dont go really really low cos youll do more harm than good. needs to have rake which means the front sits slightly lower to increase the weight over the front wheels and improve turn in and help with less understeer. hope this helps.

Same as mine. I was advised by Northampton Motorsport this is more then enough for a road car with road tyres.

Like Dan says you need to be creating some serious cornering forces to benefit from big negative camber.

 

[MarkM]

If a car is stiffly sprung to the point there is no body roll then with such little weight transfer then I can see why you wouldn't need a great deal of camber, but as mine leans like a tw*t (even though it's on coilovers) I'd hazard a guess that the full tyre is in the contact patch the way it has been setup.

That statement is nonsense.

 

[TheJesus]

If a car is stiffly sprung to the point there is no body roll then with such little weight transfer then I can see why you wouldn't need a great deal of camber, but as mine leans like a tw*t (even though it's on coilovers) I'd hazard a guess that the full tyre is in the contact patch the way it has been setup.

That statement is nonsense.

I'm no suspension expert, but then neither are you muppets, you take one persons word as gospel and assume they are right and everyone else is wrong. I dont know what camber settings you should run, but it makes sense to me that as every setup is different with different dampening etc then I dont see any logical arguement to support this "so called" fact that no more than neg 1.5 is needed. So while what I put may well be nonsense I'd like an proper detailed explaination as to why purely for my own understanding, as Pro Sport obviously know less that you guys... as do the people that setup Peperami's and whoever elses.

Oh, just one more thing (Columbo style), Northampton Motorsport are Cambridge Motorsport, aka Mass are they, I get confused.

 

[MarkM]

Oh, just one more thing (Columbo style), Northampton Motorsport are Cambridge Motorsport, aka Mass are they, I get confused.

No Northampton Motorsport are Northampton Motorsport.

http://www.northamptonmotorsport.com/default.asp?id=20

As for whats right and wrong....

The only way you can conclusively prove it is to measure the temperature across the tyre surface after driving the car. Even temperature between insid and outside is good. Hot inside to the tyre is too much negative camber.

A road car is a compromise. Drive a big negative camber car down to the shops on a cold morning and it will be rubbish. Put some sticky tyres on it and thrash round a track on a hot day and it will start to make sense.

IMO more then 1.5 neg upsets the compromise on a road car and for that 10% of the time it works it doesnt for the other 90% of the time.

 

[d4ve86]

la la la la la la la la la la la - will you 2 ever give up?

 

[kully]

^^^^^pmsl .....never :quiet:

 

[MarkM]

la la la la la la la la la la la - will you 2 ever give up?

How even is the tyre wear on your car?

I will give up when I am banned not to much longer now...

 

[TheJesus]

Oh, just one more thing (Columbo style), Northampton Motorsport are Cambridge Motorsport, aka Mass are they, I get confused.

No Northampton Motorsport are Northampton Motorsport.

http://www.northamptonmotorsport.com/default.asp?id=20

As for whats right and wrong....

The only way you can conclusively prove it is to measure the temperature across the tyre surface after driving the car. Even temperature between insid and outside is good. Hot inside to the tyre is too much negative camber.

A road car is a compromise. Drive a big negative camber car down to the shops on a cold morning and it will be rubbish. Put some sticky tyres on it and thrash round a track on a hot day and it will start to make sense.

IMO more then 1.5 neg upsets the compromise on a road car and for that 10% of the time it works it doesnt for the other 90% of the time.

You forgot to add the following:

"In my limited experience in that I have never actually driven a car with any real camber on the road, but this is what me mate Dave down the pub told me"

Do one Mason, I asked for something conclusive, not your opinion on why you "think" more than negative 1.5 degrees is too much camber on the road. I want to know if this is applied to all suspension sets as a general rule, as you and Danielsan are leading everyone here to believe all coilover kits are the same in that sense. I fail to see how this can be the case with different dampening and spring rates meaning more roll and weight transfer will have totally different effects on what part of the tyre remains flat on the road and in full contact. I dont know one way or the other, hence why I'm asking for something conclusive, but yet again opinion seems to be getting passed off as fact.

I'm running negative 2.3, and it doesn't feel much different to driving it totally stock camber but for sharper turn in at speed. Normal driving is totally unaffected and anyone that has driven it wont have even noticed the camber under normal driving circumstances and 1.5 to 2.3 is one hell of a difference... but then what use is practical testing when we can all sit behind keyboards theorising? lol.

Again, I'll admit I have no real knowledge on how a car should ideally be setup, I only know what I have tried and what seems to work and to say anything more than 1.5 on a road car is quite frankly... utter b****cks

Dave - probably not, but I'd have said the same to anyone trying to give out misinformed advice, hence why I said it to Dan first. I'm sorry, but suspension advice like that is just a nonsense, as this is assuming every single kit is identical, just imagine your car on standard suspension leaning and pitching about going into a corner and put the same camber setting on a stiffly sprung car and the contact patch from the tyre onto the road will surely be completely different!?!?

 

[d4ve86]

im not sure, iv just changed my wheels, when i get home tomorrow ill take a look at the ones i took off but overall thats not what this topic is about.

all he wants to know is ride hight and a camber figure, if its a road car then id go for a 1.3 to 1.5 -iv camber and ride height i cant help with because i forgot what mine is, every garage will set it slightly differently.

I would guess my mark fish set up ride height is different to yours Mark, what is your car set up for?

 

[MarkM]

im not sure, iv just changed my wheels, when i get home tomorrow ill take a look at the ones i took off but overall thats not what this topic is about.

The correct camber will give even wear over the tyres surface. If you run a day to day car with 2.5neg camber and the tyre wear is even then this would appear to give an idea of how much camber is OK to run.

To set camber on a race car you would use a temperature probe. Checlking tyre wear is a more long term way of doing this.

You want as much of the tyres surface in contact with the road as much of the time as possible. Over 5000 miles if the inside shows 1mm more wear then the outside you are sat on the inside of tyre more then the outside and have to much camber.

Measuring tyre wear and stating the type of driving you use your car for would be good information in working out the 'best' camber setting.

 

[MarkM]

The only way you can conclusively prove it is to measure the temperature across the tyre surface after driving the car. Even temperature between insid and outside is good. Hot inside to the tyre is too much negative camber.

Do one Mason, I asked for something conclusive, not your opinion on why you "think" more than negative 1.5 degrees is too much camber on the road. I want to know if this is applied to all suspension sets as a general rule, as you and Danielsan are leading everyone here to believe all coilover kits are the same in that sense.

I gave you a conclusive answer. Go and buy a temperature probe.

 

[leeroybrown]

Chers for the advise on chamer guys, it really does help

Any ideas on right height for front and rear?

 

[Middo]

exactly what someone tells you on a forum isn't gospel!

but ask middo how accurate i am at setting clios up by eye!

pretty much spot on! very very impressed....

 

[Dan R]

You mean what gdi andy the god of the world told you more like!!!!!

erm, no actually, as Andy's only ever touched the coilovers to raise them up a bit. As for the headwork thing that was Andy's neighbour accross the road that told me that. Different tuners have different opinions on things though, there's no real right or wrong, just what works and what doesn't and imo it's totally dependent on the kit your using... common sense really, but if you want to suck off AST or whoever it is you use then fair enough, just dont have the arrogance and ignorance to pass off what is your opinion as fact, as it's just misleading to other users on here if they take this as the gospel according to Dan. I'd certainly never tell people 1.5 is the max you can and should run, because that only applies to the shocks you are being sold, not every set on the market.

Fred - it's Pro Sport not Pro Drive, keep getting confused with all these Subaru places that sound the same lol. They are based in Stockport and mainly do Scoobs and Evo's, but are very thorough, they spent all day on my car setting it up for me.

You need to watch yourself jesus!!!!

 

[Dan R]

If a car is stiffly sprung to the point there is no body roll then with such little weight transfer then I can see why you wouldn't need a great deal of camber, but as mine leans like a tw*t (even though it's on coilovers) I'd hazard a guess that the full tyre is in the contact patch the way it has been setup.

That statement is nonsense.

Yes it is. i showed my suspension man and he said what a pole luber!!!

 

[TheJesus]

erm, no actually, as Andy's only ever touched the coilovers to raise them up a bit. As for the headwork thing that was Andy's neighbour accross the road that told me that. Different tuners have different opinions on things though, there's no real right or wrong, just what works and what doesn't and imo it's totally dependent on the kit your using... common sense really, but if you want to suck off AST or whoever it is you use then fair enough, just dont have the arrogance and ignorance to pass off what is your opinion as fact, as it's just misleading to other users on here if they take this as the gospel according to Dan. I'd certainly never tell people 1.5 is the max you can and should run, because that only applies to the shocks you are being sold, not every set on the market.

Fred - it's Pro Sport not Pro Drive, keep getting confused with all these Subaru places that sound the same lol. They are based in Stockport and mainly do Scoobs and Evo's, but are very thorough, they spent all day on my car setting it up for me.

You need to watch yourself jesus!!!!

or?

:lolup:

 

[Dan R]

That statement is nonsense.

I'm no suspension expert, but then neither are you muppets, you take one persons word as gospel and assume they are right and everyone else is wrong. I dont know what camber settings you should run, but it makes sense to me that as every setup is different with different dampening etc then I dont see any logical arguement to support this "so called" fact that no more than neg 1.5 is needed. So while what I put may well be nonsense I'd like an proper detailed explaination as to why purely for my own understanding, as Pro Sport obviously know less that you guys... as do the people that setup Peperami's and whoever elses.

Oh, just one more thing (Columbo style), Northampton Motorsport are Cambridge Motorsport, aka Mass are they, I get confused.

I didnt say it was fact and that you coudnt run more. I was just shown with a highly technical program as to why there was no real need to!!!! i never said you cant ever run more than that!!!