172cup
Bilsten are about the same 57Nm 40Nm, the adjustable damping on spax should make the difference.
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grand on coilies
- Thread starter Italian_Job
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Bilsten are about the same 57Nm 40Nm, the adjustable damping on spax should make the difference.
well remember that the rears sit in a different position to standard, so the leverage is different meaning that the spring rate is different. Burpspeed car is about 50/55Nm rear in the same position (well, was, they're running progressive's now)
28 point damping adjustment gives plenty of scope for spring changes. For road I usually start at 10 clicks from soft all round and tweak up/down 2-3 clicks. That's a lot of range still available.
28 point damping adjustment gives plenty of scope for spring changes. For road I usually start at 10 clicks from soft all round and tweak up/down 2-3 clicks. That's a lot of range still available.
I really want a set of RSX's - just need to find the money and a buyer for my Bilsteins lol
Evo 5 RS
Really enjoying my b14s at the moment. Rust free too would you believe it
172cup
If I wasn't planning to track my choice would definitely go to B14's.
Evo 5 RS
You realise SPAX and H&R are neither designed for track use, neither b14. Just because one doesn't have any DA doesn't make it a worser product.
I'll reserve judgment on the Bilsteins till next month though, but just saying.
I'll reserve judgment on the Bilsteins till next month though, but just saying.
172cup
yes i know that and when people say they are too soft they re referring to an heavy track use.
Spax would be the more track oriented setup for the AD and the the rear coilovers setup.
Sachs are a great road/track compromise if unpinned, otherwise they leans quite a lot on speed.
Spax would be the more track oriented setup for the AD and the the rear coilovers setup.
Sachs are a great road/track compromise if unpinned, otherwise they leans quite a lot on speed.
Bilsteins were the cheapest with a good name, I honestly couldn't justify spending any more than what I did on a 1.5k clio lol.
As far as the rust and knocking situation goes ill try my best to keep them well maintained to try and prolong there life.
If anything adjustability puts me of as Ill always be thinking if its actually set up at its best rather than having the fixed damping that has been tried and tested on the nurburgring so you cant go far wrong with these on a road car imo,
To answer your question Italian_Job I will only be doing the odd track day and Im sure there well up for the job for my limited experience considering I have seen many threads on here where people mention the standard set up to be adequate. I will let you know what I think of them once fitted but I know what my answer will be lol.
As far as the rust and knocking situation goes ill try my best to keep them well maintained to try and prolong there life.
If anything adjustability puts me of as Ill always be thinking if its actually set up at its best rather than having the fixed damping that has been tried and tested on the nurburgring so you cant go far wrong with these on a road car imo,
To answer your question Italian_Job I will only be doing the odd track day and Im sure there well up for the job for my limited experience considering I have seen many threads on here where people mention the standard set up to be adequate. I will let you know what I think of them once fitted but I know what my answer will be lol.
ph1 172
I think it all depends on how serious you want to be on track. The Sachs in their standard form are very good, but on the road for everyday use too hard IMO and on track too soft. Yes you can have them unpinned to adjust them but you are making an already expensive damper, very expensive and you still cannot change the springs for different rates or adjust the height. Also the standard Sachs rear dampers are too soft, fact.
I have sold my Sachs setup now as I need to put money into another project, which for that I now have AST Sportline II valved and sprung for my car weight which just so happened to come up at a price that no one could refuse. Failing those I would have the Spax track day setup. On the road IMO they are a better ride than the Sachs and out on track they are better suited too. For the money you really cannot go wrong. I removed a set off dmallett's car the other day to fit AST top mount's and to hold, they are a really well made piece of kit.
If I was you, my money would go to the Spax from Dan.
172cup
I agree on everything you said about Sachs, fantastic damper but you can't really go for 15" wheels unless very keen on a 4x4 ride height.
thanks for the feedback Rhys.
ph1 172
Your welcome.
And as you seem to have the same views on the Sachs as me then, I would think that you will love the Spax
I don't agree with you there at all - not having DA means they're no good as soon as you alter the weight or weight distribution of the car
You can easily tweak the damping on the Spax setup and even swap springs for stiffer ones if you want - that makes them much more usable as a track setup
ph1 172
Neither are actually "designed" for solely track/race use, there are track/race setups that are designed for that which do not work on the road. These setups are a compromise between the two if you like and IMO the Spax do a very good job at both. But like Phil says, the Spax that have that DA can be better suited to the track through fine adjustment/different spring rates than coilovers set at a fixed dampening rate that have been designed for standard weight car.
172/1.2/E30
When altering the weight, it's most important to have updated spring rates. They should become softer with less weight as the static load is lower. Dampers are only for the fine-adjustment and are dependent on the spring rates.
172cup
are you sure about that? I think they ll get stiffer with less weight, which s better.
please feel free to correct me If I'm talking s**t.....
ph1 172
If you put stiffer springs on a lighter car you will require a harder damping rate. All of which is pointless on a light car as it will not compress it and therefore the suspension will stop being suspension. You will require a softer spring rate with less weight and match the damping and have them valved for the car weight. This is all a tad extreme for occasional track days but essential for racing.
172/1.2/E30
Pretty damn sure. Spring rates: N/mm => less weight, less force by weight to compress the springs.
Isn't the bilstein damper a certain design so that the damping rate is dependant on the load being forced onto it? So less weight would technically mean less load on the shock therefore a softer damping rate when there is less weight?
I could be talking the biggest load of crap and probably sound like a complete bell end but can anyone confirm this?
Also I'm not arguing that they are better than the any other brands in the same price bracket, just discussing really as we are on the topic of damping rates etc.
I could be talking the biggest load of crap and probably sound like a complete bell end but can anyone confirm this?
Also I'm not arguing that they are better than the any other brands in the same price bracket, just discussing really as we are on the topic of damping rates etc.
172cup
I agree but does that make the car stiffer? cos the springs require more weight to compress......
172cup
I mean if B14s are "soft" stripping the car out should make them slightly stiffer.
172cup
let me check my email thenStop askng questions Al, you know what you're having
Evo 5 RS
Almost. They have internal valves which adjust dampening on the fly obviously dependent on load. Yeah, exactly. How f**king cool is that.
Once again; making them an almost ideal fast road / track setup
172cup
Almost. They have internal valves which adjust dampening on the fly obviously dependent on load. Yeah, exactly. How f**king cool is that.
Once again; making them an almost ideal fast road / track setup
nice find.
172cup
Out of interest, is there any DA Bilstein set for clios?
Evo 5 RS
Pretty sure there isn't. They don't make B16s for the 1*2s
172cup
Evo 5 RS
That did cross my mind tbh
Almost. They have internal valves which adjust dampening on the fly obviously dependent on load. Yeah, exactly. How f**king cool is that.
Once again; making them an almost ideal fast road / track setup
Most good dampers do that. Infact of the more expensive ones, Gaz are the only ones that don't that I know if. Non-linear damping isn't unusual
Evo 5 RS
Can't be exactly the same otherwise I doubt they would of patented it
Almost. They have internal valves which adjust dampening on the fly obviously dependent on load. Yeah, exactly. How f**king cool is that.
Once again; making them an almost ideal fast road / track setup
Ahh I see thanks for confirming that lol.
Cant bloody wait, ordered them on the 7th of April :banghead:.
172cup
http://www.balancemotorsport.co.uk/products.asp?partno=ACU-CLIO182CUP
I was gonna go for this, saw the price and got all excited and............ I read ex vat
I was gonna go for this, saw the price and got all excited and............ I read ex vat
Sir_Dave
ClioSport Trader
Personally, i would simply get the Sachs you have refurbed, put some konis on the rear, then combine it with a Whiteline ARB and Sportlines.
This is the setup that i'll have shortly, & the one that Nick is currently speccing up.
For me, it is the most driver adjustable setup available for the clio both on road/track and i dont mean in terms of suspension adjustability, i mean in terms of mid-corner, lift, slight drift, wind off lock, plant throttle, pull out of corner, repeat. Yes, it can be edgy/oversteery/nigh on dangerous at times, but a track day is about fun, not speed imho.
If you want to switch your brain off and go round & round & round as quickly as possible, get some AST's, add some camber and R888's. You'll instantly be a CS hero. If you want fun, driving pleasure and some real throttle adjustability, keep the Sachs, get them refurbed and enjoy some ar5e-twitching moments on your next trackday.
This is the setup that i'll have shortly, & the one that Nick is currently speccing up.
For me, it is the most driver adjustable setup available for the clio both on road/track and i dont mean in terms of suspension adjustability, i mean in terms of mid-corner, lift, slight drift, wind off lock, plant throttle, pull out of corner, repeat. Yes, it can be edgy/oversteery/nigh on dangerous at times, but a track day is about fun, not speed imho.
If you want to switch your brain off and go round & round & round as quickly as possible, get some AST's, add some camber and R888's. You'll instantly be a CS hero. If you want fun, driving pleasure and some real throttle adjustability, keep the Sachs, get them refurbed and enjoy some ar5e-twitching moments on your next trackday.
172cup
I really like what you said there, I want to have fun and I don't mind if the car puts me on the spot every now and again!
Didn't know your might loose some throttle adj along the AST r888 combo, I want that too especially because I've got very little experience.
I'd keep the Sachs but I'm dead sure I'm gonna jump on 15" very soon, tyres are so much cheaper and I might regret not being able to lower it........
thanks for posting mate that really helps and got me to think
maybe I don't need a CS hero setup......for now, I might just get some good handling coliovers and see what happens, no need to rush it (no literally)
Didn't know your might loose some throttle adj along the AST r888 combo, I want that too especially because I've got very little experience.
I'd keep the Sachs but I'm dead sure I'm gonna jump on 15" very soon, tyres are so much cheaper and I might regret not being able to lower it........
thanks for posting mate that really helps and got me to think
maybe I don't need a CS hero setup......for now, I might just get some good handling coliovers and see what happens, no need to rush it (no literally)
Quite clearly neither of you have ever seen or been in a Clio Cup Race car?
They're solid - and I mean ridiculously solid
And it's a bit daft saying "the most important thing to change is springs" because if you change springs you need to change damping to match - so adjustable damping is JUST as important and swapping springs. Which yet again backs up why I say bilstein B14's are s**te for track because they're completely unadjustable other than height
172cup
LOL
I'll be buying something next week, so I still got a few days left to get properly brainwashed
Evo 5 RS
So you're honestly saying your cars been s**t on track up until now? The damping rate really isn't that bad be honest, is it. Everyone thats owned them seems to think they're a great compromise.
It's not s**t on track compared to a standard car - it handles well
But it's waaaay too soft for track use. I've taken well over 150kg out of the Clio and put a 60kg cage in - the cage is all on the rear half of the car - as is the battery
It tends to understeer and when I had it properly setup I was advised that understeer could be dialled out by tweaking the damping rates on the rear - but I can't
Bilsteins are REALLY NICE coilovers - they don't rust (had mine over a year now), they're very well made and when the car had a full interior in they were just right
In all honesty though, and people will not like this - they were almost identical to my old eibach springs and standard shocks - just you could set the ride height
For the price tag - you can get spax and the spax setup are just as well made from what I've seen and fully adjustable
Which makes spax the obvious choice for this budget because you can soften them for day use and get them setup properly if you're using them on a track car
It's just insane trying to argue that a set of shock absorbers pre-set to be right for a standard 172 are right for a track car - when for the same money you can get a completely adjustable setup
Oh and also with everything stripped out of the clio I can't get the rear low enough on bilsteins - whereas with the new style spax setup I could corner weight it to my hearts content
