Three Clio RS logs

[Tekillator]

we went this sunday to compare our cars and i did some logs from 4000 to 7000 rpms in the same conditions. look at the charts and let us know your comments please

green car mods:
2.25" Exhaust with team cat
Engine Dynamics cams
Custom FastChip Ecu Remap
Ported Intake Manifold

blue car mods:
2.25" Exhaust no cat
FastChip Ecu Remap

red car mods:
182 manifold and crankshaft
DRP Ecu remap
2.5" Exhaust
ported heads
K&N Typhoon

conditions:
2600 meters above sea level
temperature: 30 °C
gasoline: 92 Octanes (RON+MON)/2

here a time table comparison, blue car is faster by far!

 

[frediiii]

I'd like to know how luigi got the intake air that cold!

 

[en035]

answer is simple, more advance more power at least for the same settings + no knock correction for him.

it is also good to see that fastchip performs better.

 

[maupineda]

answer is simple, more advance more power at least for the same settings + no knock correction for him.

it is also good to see that fastchip performs better.

Odd thing is that car doesn't have fastchip but a different tuner's map. The other two cars both have Fastchips cal, wonder why we don't have more advance.

My Car is still having its mapping done, as I have cams (my car is the gree line). Probably that will be changed after the car is completely done. Now the question, does no knock and more advance mean a better map or not really?

 

[luis_villarruel]

i'm Luigi (clio 172 blue, is not a cup!)

I'd like to know how luigi got the intake air that cold!

this is my intake:

before the test:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TefjmYqwgUA

[youtube]TefjmYqwgUA[/youtube]

 

[frediiii]

luigi: thanks. behind the wall you installed a simple cone filter?

 

[Mase]

answer is simple, more advance more power at least for the same settings + no knock correction for him.

it is also good to see that fastchip performs better.

Have a look again Alpher I think you got your colours mixed up there. Red car wasn't a fastchip remap as that was the one with no correction.

Also of note I think is that F4R varies a lot from factory. AIT will effect perf a lot as well.

Cheers Mase

 

[Mase]

Odd thing is that car doesn't have fastchip but a different tuner's map. The other two cars both have Fastchips cal, wonder why we don't have more advance.

My Car is still having its mapping done, as I have cams (my car is the gree line). Probably that will be changed after the car is completely done. Now the question, does no knock and more advance mean a better map or not really?

Your cars (green) AIT was far too high - perhaps you were not going WOT as much as the others? OR your intake is a pod filter in the engine bay? Or even the sensor is not outputting correctly? The variance you are seeing will have a significant effect on performance. One should expect 20-25 degs above ambient if external temps are around 30C which = Blue car.

The red cars AFR is not correct either for max mid range torque..it appears to be dipping into closed loop-odd behaviour- perhaps rear 02 sensor is even seeing a 'catalytic fault'? His advance is cranked over the top so it looks like the tuner is compensating by over richness to prevent high SKC thus taxing pwr / torque. This guy should get a fastchip custom remap ASAP ;-)

If the red car has a K&N pod style filter...say good by to pwr and mid range That is common knowledge in Aust.

A little slow knock correction is fine and for best in gear acceleration through mids anything up to 3.3 will be fine. Seeing 1.1 is totally expected and even desirable.

The green and blue car have more poke as the tune is better - more advance doesn't always mean more power - AFAIK it's the 'oldest trick in the book'.

What about MAP pressures over the rev range compared to absolute pressure..this is very important - less pressure variance the better. That would be telling between cars.

It's funny as you are driving on a flat plain at nearly the height of Australia's highest mountain

Luigi and Mau had their data logger VCI set to a differing polling rate that Mr Red or their laptops USB poling rate is different thus the variance in end speed and the jiggly nature of the speed curves. Something not right here. Perhaps it's just the way the .csv file exported and the data sample you used?

If your rim sizes / rolling diameters differ then the speed figs will be out as the speed from the data logger is derived from the ABS rings via the ABS computer module. The dash speedo is driven form the gear box drive..two seperate systems.

Decat will make a fair difference to gas flow.

These are my thoughts.

 

[maupineda]

Thanks for your comments Mase, very interesting. I knew advance is thought as for increasing power, but as you said, it is not the whole thing.

The green line car (mine) has a panel filter, the blue line car is Tekilators (the car form where the vide was recorded) and the red line car belongs to the blue clio from Luis, he has the Typhoon setup shown above.

Tekilator's and mine have fastchip calibrations, and Luis' has a local tuner one.

Mine has cams and Tekilator's just decat, 2.5" exhaust and fastchip, the other car has more in it, it has skimmed head (maybe this is why it requires more advance), 182 mani, 182 crank, decat, 2.5" exhaust and it really flies and has better torque. In the video, the last try was done in 4th at 2500 rpms and there you see the difference. From your comments looks like the cal in Luis' car can be refined and be even a bit faster. That blue clio was the faster of the bunch.

By the way, my clio is not yet totally mapped, Henk is on it at the moment =P

I will graph the manifold pressure vs RPM and vs Atmospheric to see which setup loses less presure.

My car has a painted plenum, I think this is keeping it a lot hotter as the conditions where the same for the three machines

About height, yes, Mexico City and its soroundings is a valley close to GOD =D

Also, all cars were logged with same VCI and laptop, is it possible the settings where different? Problem is my car is an old one, no ESP so the reading for the speed comes from the box and not the abs as the other two being later models. That is why my car speed reading is so unsteady I asume. Also, my car runs on taller tyres (195/55/15) which could be part of the explanation two, the other have same tyre and wheel size (195/50/15).

 

[Mase]

I have just this moment realised that the graphs you posted change colour re who's car is who's with Luigi starting as the Blue car then turning into the 'red' car on the charts... and Luigi as Alper says is running the most advance and least duty cycle but not a RSTuner map if indeed what you posted formost is correct...dunno me confused now

 

[en035]

what I am thinking is that it is running over-lean. All colors mixed up

I am totally confused with the injection duty cycle, they seem to be far low as compared with mine and yours Jamie.

 

[maupineda]

I have just this moment realised that the graphs you posted change colour re who's car is who's with Luigi starting as the Blue car then turning into the 'red' car on the charts... and Luigi as Alper says is running the most advance and least duty cycle but not a RSTuner map if indeed what you posted formost is correct...dunno me confused now

Mate, this is how car's are.

Blue Clio is Luigi's and all red lines belong to his car, just in the temps chart his car is lined blue and tekis red.
Video Recording car is Tekilator's, the blue line in all charts.
Mi car (Mau's) is green lines in all charts

However, your comments match these, ain't they?

 

[maupineda]

what I am thinking is that it is running over-lean. All colors mixed up

I am totally confused with the injection duty cycle, they seem to be far low as compared with mine and yours Jamie.

Hi Alper, just the first chart is not ok, go by the names LOL.

About inyection, since we are at a considerable height above sea level with less air and oxigen I guess it is not possible to elevate the injection duty. Henk has considered this and since mine has cams it has the most duty (mine is green line in all charts)

What about your advances, are they alike?

 

[en035]

your ignition advance values seem a little weird to me. I am attaching a log of mine.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

 

[Mase]

Yes I see now..Luigi starts as a blue trace and then turns red for other charts however desc of mods says TKLA car is the red one per the car immediately below...

Incidently by advance will be lucky to get over 28 degs with AIT of 25 degs C.

Yes Alper I see Red trace does look lean..not sure anymore if anything I thought makes any sense And I think someone else just posted... I'm off to bed

 

[Mase]

My data logs are pretty similiar to Alpers re advance and AFR's from the WB02 sensor..bed here I come..

 

[maupineda]

Alper, Mase, what are your temps? Mine are super high! would like to see yours. how is the weather at your towns? hot?

 

[Mase]

As I run the PLX gauge module I can see temps all the time. As a rule my intake temps are 20-25 above ambient at low speeds and 13-18 ^ ambient at higher speeds. Depends in on or off throttle. WOT is best obviously. Heat soak ends roughly in the same place ~ 45-65 regardless of the external temp.

It's not hot here anymore. Day time temps ~ 18-20

I think your intake temp is far too high..no right...if only 30 deg outside..should be more like 50 deg or less at WOT.

My intake is ceramic coated and I have a PTFE gasket between lower mani and plenum section. I suspect ceramic coating is only good for spirited driving. Keeps as much heat in as it does out! Lol. Good on exhaust manifold though

 

[Tekillator]

Mase et al

thanks a lot for your comments and sorry for the mess with the colors it was also late when I did it! now we have homework to do

 

[Tekillator]

here the pressure chart MAP-Atm Pressure

 

[Mase]

Looks a bit unusual to me. I would expect a slightly descending line like the 'light yellow' line in en035's data logs above so I would expect to see 3 lines nearly on top of each other unless the vert scale was adapted to allow easy differentiation.

What data is displayed above? Can you take a screen grab in RSTuner of each of the cars data logs on the 3.5K <>7K runs and show only RPM, MAP and Absolute Pressure? Might even be a good idea to do RSTuner default settings in general. Much like Alper did above. Is this possible? This would be more telling. Place the data measure line at max RPM. Label each screen grab as Red (name), Blue (name) etc

Or send me your logs so I can see them on my RSTuner software? Don't forget to name them jtmase@adam.com.au

Cheers

 

[Tekillator]

Looks a bit unusual to me. I would expect a slightly descending line like the 'light yellow' line in en035's data logs above so I would expect to see 3 lines nearly on top of each other unless the vert scale was adapted to allow easy differentiation.

What data is displayed above? Can you take a screen grab in RSTuner of each of the cars data logs on the 3.5K <>7K runs and show only RPM, MAP and Absolute Pressure? Might even be a good idea to do RSTuner default settings in general. Much like Alper did above. Is this possible? This would be more telling. Place the data measure line at max RPM. Label each screen grab as Red (name), Blue (name) etc

Or send me your logs so I can see them on my RSTuner software? Don't forget to name them jtmase@adam.com.au

Cheers

you have an email! many thanks for your help!!

 

[Christopher]

Nice international thread!

 

[oinotna2008]

logs for knock signal average?thankss

 

[Mase]

logs for knock signal average?thankss

Regarding this you can't really compare this as it will vary as a learning parameter depending on you driving style and the sensor.

If fact, as I was kindly reminded..you can't actually compare cars!

Re Ave K, for example - if I have been driving slowly in ambient temps of 40 deg C + for a few days the Ave K is very high, if on the other hand ambients drop to say 15 deg C and I drive harder the ECU relearns and my Ave K is very low (like 0-3 on idle) where as hot weather it is 20-35.

I hope this makes sense. Cheers

 

[Mase]

I should hasten to add that after looking at the actual logs the ave knock signals were rather interesting in that it looked like the tables for the engines sound footprint had been altered in one car to perhaps cover up any potential knock incidents to ensure the timing and fueling remained as it did - there were prominant konck spikes and rapid Ave climbs that were not associated with any corrections at all. Anyways..can't compare cars as we know.

 

[oinotna2008]

Thanks Mase,I remember few months ago,my car have 18º ignition advance at 6000 rpms :S,I have to do logs...

 

[Mase]

18 deg is low...yes must do logs. Feel free to send my some logs per above..I don't profess to know a great deal but do understand the basics and what you should 'normally' see under normal conditions. Might help.

 

[oinotna2008]

your ignition advance values seem a little weird to me. I am attaching a log of mine.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

this logs for en0 are good?

4 gear?

 

[oinotna2008]

Por cierto,con que habeis hecho los logs?

 

[gprs 172]

...nice mods! the grey clio with the ed cams how many hp does it runs?
this cams must be empty of power at low rpm so 4th and 2500 it is sleeping!

 

[luis_villarruel]

Mase, thanks for your kind explanation on the mails to Enrique.

Por cierto,con que habeis hecho los logs?

Se hicieron con RStuner de Fastchip.

...nice mods! the grey clio with the ed cams how many hp does it runs?
this cams must be empty of power at low rpm so 4th and 2500 it is sleeping!

Tomorrow we are going to test both cars, silver and blue, on the dyno at a local tuner, we will post the graphs.

Luis. (Luigi)

 

[gprs 172]

...ok! good luck for the dyno day!

 

[Mase]

en0 log is 4th gear - speed 124 / rpm ~ 5K

No worries Luigi re my comments - I like to ponder these things. Perhaps as the dyno place to calibrate the Wide Band 02 sensor before doing the dyno runs. Also make sure they log power (kw) & torque (Nm) at the wheels against actual RPM. Do each car with it's bonnet up and it might be wise to spray some water on the intake manifolds (hand spray bottle) to ensure the mani temps are abour 30-40 and each cars roughly equivalent (more like being on the road)

ALSO - us the RSTuner to log the data of the runs on each car on the dyno ;-) Very telling.

I am high maintenance LOL

 

[Tekillator]

I will dyno my S4 B5 as well

 

[Mase]

Just thinking out loud -

- when you get to the dyno place leave bonnets up to escape heat quicker

- if you start the RSTuner data logging when the car is on the dyno with the fans on the car - do the water spray then - and see if you can average out the intake temps between the cars to get a better indication. You guys might be best served to remove the plastic engine covers on the cars.

 

[oinotna2008]

I just made a log, very bad result, look at ignition advance and knock signal

Resuming,at 6048 rpms,15.75º for example and knock signal 126

I need help!!!car is currently running 6500_5004 OEM cal

if you want I send the log to your mail

 

[oinotna2008]

 

[Mase]

Hi : e-mail me your log file. When sending file can you outline the 'conditions' e.g do you nromally drive in traffic most of the time - or open roads at higher speeds, where are you located, altitude, weather, fuel type, any mods on car, if indeed it is a OEM .cal file or a performance .cal from the website as the rev limiter seems too high for OEM. I'll have a ponder and let you know what I can see. Might help you..might not.

Don't panic! 1 degree of knock correction is nothing . We'll sort this out

 

[oinotna2008]

thanks Mase,I have send you the log!