SADEV Geabox info

[Oldskoolbaby]

Over the next year or so, I'll be building two turbocharged v6 motors up for me and a fellow vee owner. The decision from the outset has been to ditch the weak PK6 gearbox's in favour of stronger ones as to improve the reliability. This will be done by machining a bellhousing adaptor and using a typical 6 speed full syncro 'box.(nothing new or fancy) However, ive been quite fortunate in finding someone who has offered me a trophy SADEV box for some time now which i'd really love to use.

However the one thing that does put me off the idea of using one is the stories ive been told about how to run with one and the huge costs, as far as ECU's are concerned, to make one remotely reliable. Ive used a couple of Dog boxes before and they proved very reliable using just the old toe and heeling technique.

Does the engine really have to be reved matched to each and every gearchange using SADEVS?
And are the super expensive motec ecu's really needed?

I know this is a v6 based question and many people say "look on v6clio.net" but but I've noticed a fair few more people on here do have SADEVS compared to next to none on the sister site.


Any help will be great

 

[franx]

try to get in contact with these guys , I believe Fred on here knows more about this one

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sNvWtlESSC0

 

[drhowser]

^^ As far as that one goes, I wouldn't take a push bike to Scott. I am pretty sure however that Mike was running Motec.

Brett, I guess that it's the ignition cut that the ecu has to control, in which case you'll be able to use more than just the motec. I'd suggest speaking to Matt at TDF about one of his ecu's, or I have an omex 710 that might be going spare if it's any use.

 

[Fred@BTM]

aye the V6 boys seem to be under some illusion that using a motec is the only way, wrong it is the most expensive way, there's better ecu's available for way less ££££

 

[drhowser]

Yup. There's a reason for it too, but you know my thoughts on that one..

 

[slindborg]

http://www.swrmotorsport.com/

These chaps seemed to be rather knowledgeable regarding SADEV's Granted they might not be huge help on the ecu front but could tell you what needs to be done to make the box reliable/robust in use

 

[Hutchie]

ecu to control seq box? does it have a motor on? as our sadev one is just a rod push in and out. mechanical. only electrical connector is a sensor for the digidash to display which gear you are in.

 

[Oldskoolbaby]

Brett, I guess that it's the ignition cut that the ecu has to control, in which case you'll be able to use more than just the motec. I'd suggest speaking to Matt at TDF about one of his ecu's, or I have an omex 710 that might be going spare if it's any use.

This is the problem. Ive heard that the box requires the engine to be bliped up to change down which then means the ecu needs some form of throttle control. Possible fly by wire throttle which I just don't want as I want these engines to be nice and simple with no fancy controls to go up the spout every 2 minutes.

As for MikeT's car in that video, I was emailing him a while ago concerning this problem and it was him who said they need rev matching along with 2 others with v6's. I'm not saying there advise was wrong in the slightest but these were BIG money builds and ive been there before. You find you do things that aren't really needed.

As for the ECU's, you could beat me black and blue with a motec before I bought one. Just no need what so ever in my opinion. I'm either going for Emerald or Gotech the way things are standing. All I want to be controled is fuel, ignition and boost . . . . . simples!

 

[Oldskoolbaby]

ecu to control seq box? does it have a motor on? as our sadev one is just a rod push in and out. mechanical. only electrical connector is a sensor for the digidash to display which gear you are in.

I mean to control the engine as far as rev matching for each gearchange. Trying to find out if its a case if you can use them like a typical dogbox through the gears or do i have to finely tune the motor so its a seemless change so to speak.

 

[slindborg]

dont fear engine eletronics Stuff has moved on a fair way since the late 90's and ETB's are epicly reliable ime. With a cunning ETB capable ecu you should be able to simply 1:1 calibrate it so what you do with the pedal IS what happens to the throttle, jsut with the blipping at shift added for niceness.

 

[Fred@BTM]

yeah you can, but you need some form of cut if you're wanting full throttle changes going up, heal and toe on the way down is standard anyway

 

[Oldskoolbaby]

dont fear engine eletronics Stuff has moved on a fair way since the late 90's and ETB's are epicly reliable ime. With a cunning ETB capable ecu you should be able to simply 1:1 calibrate it so what you do with the pedal IS what happens to the throttle, jsut with the blipping at shift added for niceness.

Lol I wish I didn't fear them but they are something that I'm just not that clued up on. Like I say, a few people have attempted tuning the v6 using huge ammounts of fancy technology which is great, should it all work in harmony as it should do. The plan is to build two low compression motors running at no more than 15-17psi, using the old non vvc v6 as a base to get around sorting that out, reprofiled cams, a simple commonly used ecu and the throttle peddal as traction cotrol. Just nothing fancy. . . . . . apart from the gearbox on mine hopefully lol


Fred this is exactly the info I'm after. I thought this was the case but have been told they self destruct using the toe and heel method? I take it you have used one or better have one? The ignition cut is a very simple thing to sort out I know but I doubt I'll be flat shifting all the time anyway. After all, it will be going into a road/track day toy so rarely used in anger lol


Thanks for the comments by the way guys. I will put up a build thread sooner or later

 

[Fred@BTM]

its just a gearbox with a different shifting mechanism, can operate it like a normal box if you want, clutch in, pull stick clutch out, the electronics are there to stop you over reving etc etc, speak to matt @ TDF about it, he has loads of experience with these things, paddle shift conversion etc etc he's done it all, good with V6 electronics too, he's doing mine at some point with his EC1 ECU

 

[Oldskoolbaby]

Yep thats exactly what I thought Fred. They are essentialy dog boxes with a pre set way of selecting the gears. I have heard TDF is good and not too far away from me either.







ps....Did I ever give you that new sensor back Fred???? I remember ordering it cant remember if I sent it up to you though:S

 

[Kam.]

For my Hewland gearbox, I have a sensor in the gearlever to cut the ignition when touched so I can do full throttle gearshifts, then the other for the gear position indicator. I would use the clutch as much as possible to lengthen the time between rebuilds as the dog teeth will take more punishment on clutchless gearchanges.

Kev

 

[Oldskoolbaby]

Yeah this is pretty much how I intend to drive the car to be honest as I know these things don't last like the typical syncro boxes.




Thanks guys

 

[Kam.]

You will have to find out from Sadev on how many hours use before they recommend a rebuild. On my Hewland I can just pull the gear cluster out the side of the box so its relatively easy so see damage to the cogs, but the kinder you are the longer they last..

 

[drhowser]

I don't know with the vee boxes, but I've seen a few people posting on here saying the 1*2 boxes are much longer lasting than people seem to think.
I'm guessing you'll have considered it already, but cryo treatment?

 

[Oldskoolbaby]

I'm guessing you'll have considered it already, but cryo treatment?

Not a bad idea to be honest. Ive never had anything cryo treated before so it could be worth a go. Ive built my own gearboxes in the past and I found that the dog boxes were easier to assemble than the full syncro type. I'm just not sure/familiar on how the selector mechanism works on sequential 'boxes.

 

[Fred@BTM]

sensor - no i never got it, don't worry though car isn't going anywhere just yet!

 

[mikekean]

For my Hewland gearbox, I have a sensor in the gearlever to cut the ignition when touched so I can do full throttle gearshifts, then the other for the gear position indicator. I would use the clutch as much as possible to lengthen the time between rebuilds as the dog teeth will take more punishment on clutchless gearchanges.

Kev

Not true, William Hewland himselft says that using the clutch on up shifts will damage the dogs more than if you do a manul shift or use engine cut. Going down the box you can either blip the throtle before you change down (do not use the clutch) or dip the clutch enough to release the torque off the gears. To reduce wear to the dogs you need to make the shift (up or down) as quick as possible, which is why they are annoying for daily use.

At the moment im just using my sequential manually by lifting off the throttle as the the calibration of my flatshiftt is all to **** due to fitting a lighter flywheel. I will be purchasing an EC1 ECU from TDF when i have enough cash as it incorporates a 'Closed loop' gear cut function, which is the best form of gear cut you can have as the ECU will not engage ignition untill it has seen that the full gearchange has been made. This might be a good option for your self..

Read this for more on how to use a dog box http://www.hewland.com/svga/advice.html

 

[Oldskoolbaby]

I will be purchasing an EC1 ECU from TDF when i have enough cash as it incorporates a 'Closed loop' gear cut function, which is the best form of gear cut you can have as the ECU will not engage ignition untill it has seen that the full gearchange has been made. This might be a good option for your self..

Read this for more on how to use a dog box http://www.hewland.com/svga/advice.html

I know somebody who has developed something like that for years now. I bought my mini Miglia off of him. He owns Lynx Ae

www.lynxae.co.uk

 

[Kam.]

Not true, William Hewland himselft says that using the clutch on up shifts will damage the dogs more than if you do a manul shift or use engine cut. Going down the box you can either blip the throtle before you change down (do not use the clutch) or dip the clutch enough to release the torque off the gears. To reduce wear to the dogs you need to make the shift (up or down) as quick as possible, which is why they are annoying for daily use.

At the moment im just using my sequential manually by lifting off the throttle as the the calibration of my flatshiftt is all to **** due to fitting a lighter flywheel. I will be purchasing an EC1 ECU from TDF when i have enough cash as it incorporates a 'Closed loop' gear cut function, which is the best form of gear cut you can have as the ECU will not engage ignition untill it has seen that the full gearchange has been made. This might be a good option for your self..

Read this for more on how to use a dog box http://www.hewland.com/svga/advice.html

I guess i did not clarify my comments well. I meant use the clutch for downshifts. Upshifts I would do like a bike gear change, loading the lever then a quick lift of the throttle to engage, but as i'll have the ignition cut I just will pull the lever as fast as my arms will let me. Not sure how useful the closed loop function is for a sequential which moves the gear selector the perfect amount..

 

[Hutchie]

st-75 seems to shift fine on WOT

 

[Kam.]

Not a bad idea to be honest. Ive never had anything cryo treated before so it could be worth a go. Ive built my own gearboxes in the past and I found that the dog boxes were easier to assemble than the full syncro type. I'm just not sure/familiar on how the selector mechanism works on sequential 'boxes.

The way it works is with a cylinder. The cylinder has a groove running through it with (i think) notches in certain places for each gear. This acts the same as the gear selector rods, When you pull or push the lever the cylinder rotates and the gear selector follows the groove until it slots into the next gear along. Its very simple and clever.
I'll take a picture tomorrow as I think I have one kicking around.

 

[Oldskoolbaby]

Think i remeber Mark Evans rebuilding a bike box with something like that.

 

[Fred@BTM]

^was a harley twist grip for spark advance/r****d IIRC