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Induction kit for valver- Is it worth it



C

Captain Slarty



Hi Wongy.. thats his call, no probs.

Oh, and the reference to a humble clio Nick, before ya get yer knickers in a twist, is relative to F1 or a superbike as was quoted above..

Here is a way to resolve this.... ;)

A simple manometer.. (ie, piece of plastic tube in a u shape clipped to a piece of wood..

one end open to air, the other connected to the plenum. just before the tb !! lol, otherwise water injection would occur...

take a reading with, and without the scoop system. (Water will be deflected in relation to pressure differentialbetween atmpspheric and point of measurement)

In fact, one could use it to test any airbox system for loss or restriction by connecting one end as above and the other to the pre-airbox area. the manometer would now read differential pressure only showing any loss in the system...

Loss doesnt mean loss of performance, but may be indicative of a problem or an area to tackle.



Also, as said above, an app22 can and will show any real world benefit or lack of.

there ya go.

Joe..
 
C

Captain Slarty



Hi Ben m8..

I love the baloon analogy. :D - lets expand it a wee bit.....

What do you propose will happen if we do the following ??

get a simple funnel, connect it to a piece of platic tube, say about 1 meter long ?

at the other end of the tube, put a baloon over the pipe and secure with elastic bands or similar.

Now, drive along and let your passenger hold the funnel out of the window into the clear airstream to act as a ram - air scoop.

What happens at, say, 40 mph, 100 mph, 120 mph etc ?.

Simple question, does the balloon inflate ???

Joe.
 
V

VR6man



yeah but youd end up inflating the turkey with a bottle of coke or something to demonstrate / debunk the theory ;) and that could get just plain messy.... especially if the gravey gets involved

and then we might discover that in fact using turkeys is the way forwards. which would be just plain silly...

er

back to the real world though.....an interesting thread.....
 
B

Ben P



Just to add my 2p worth and its not concerning the pros/cons of ram air. (Thats been ignited enough)

I just wanted to say that I disagree that the forum has taken a bit of a downward spiral of late. I agree that there are a couple of non-members who come on and cause trouble, but so far as the regulars go, I think this is a very mature and respectable forum.

Okay so there are a number of heated debates (and if you are like me you would have read the thread topic and thought 1 thing. Nick vs Joe)

But IMHO the arguements/debates on cliosport rarely get personal and usually regard a relevant issue. One of the most appealing things about cliosport for me is that we dont (often) get people arguing over whos car is the best/fastest/most expensive etc etc culminating in name calling and death threats.

I think this particular issue will never be resolved, and I dont mind one bit. I know its a cliche, but if we all had exactly the same opinion there would be little point to any of this would there?

Just my bit
 
M

Matty

  Clio 190bhp Hybrid


The banter on here is good but arguments tend not to answer anything so I am leaving this well alone. People are ebtitled to their own views and some people seem bliinded or of unchangeable opinion.

Just some examples why I feel car manufacturers DONT know everything! Brake Pads- standard or uprated? Renault will be happy for majority of drivers to use their standard pads but if you go on a track and really use your car, dont you fit better? Adjustable suspension, same as before. Who adjusts theirs but on a track against similar cars a well set up suspension system for their conditions will always prove better than a standard system.

Our cars come the way they do because they are deemed fit for purpose. Better equipment is not always used because of cost and profit margin. Independent manufacturer DO know more than car companies as they specialise in a specific area, car companies cannot do that. Why do Vauxhall and Proton use Lotus. Lotus = SMALL GM = Huge! Carbon fibre, metal matrix, titanium, ceramic etc being used where strength and weight is a factor, why arent our clios using this if Renault knows so much. Some stuff may be overkill or simply not worth the cost but there are always people who can do something better. Why did Dyson create such a great product and not Hoover, Hoover is big but Dyson had brains and challenged why things have to be made a certain way!

Another mater is subjectivity. If you have just done something to your car you are bound to be defensive or pro whatever you have done. RR proved that my CDA induction kit does work in answer to the topic thread. If I fit a Ram Air type device it will be to simply ensure air is getting where it should do. If a RR then proves that a gain is made than how can you argue with that.
 
J

jimbo1



wat about the old supercharged v8s, like dodge chargers and the like, they had ram air staright to the blower on top of the bonnet did they not?

i read in evo magazine, the ferrari 550 maranello was designed to use ram air. its v12 engine produces an extra 12bhp(or sumthin like that) from ram air thru the vent in the bonnet.

ive had a big 4inch pipe hooked up to my airbox fromt he front grill for the past year. the only time the extar oomph is noticable is on the motorway, like in 5th at 80mph. before with jsut standard airbox, not much wud happen, but with the pipe, it picks up and pulls!! no accelerates up hills with more urgency. i thought origianlly it was my imagination, but i removed the airbox, and it went back to less torque, air pipe back on, more go.

i think the ram air thing only works wen u crack open the throttle. wen cruising, the air pressure becomes static in the air box and ram pipe, cus theres no where for it to go. WOT the engine gulps it down, if u c wat i mean. the only acceleration differenc eive noticed is wen cruisng at speed-70mph +, and not at lower speeds. i havnt actually been able to accelerate faster thru the gears with this mod

i wudnt claim huge power gains from it-cus there isnt any. but for 10quid, im happy as larry

jimbo:D
 
C

Captain Slarty



Hiya Jimbo,

The ferrari will benefit at the top end of its rediculous lol speed attainable. The old chargers etc with the bonnet mounted scoop was to maintian a stable airflow pattern, not to achieve any form of ram compression. - on a top fuel dragster the speeds attained will certainly assist the effect though.

As for your (subjective - no offense intended !)impressions, you are welcome to borrow and test it with my ap22.

Try this, hook the 4" pipe to point down, say, behind the bumper and try it again, you will find that it is the reduction of the restriction of the original oem pipe that is causing a gain if any.

Joe.
 
C

Captain Slarty



Sorry Matty, I missed your post, so here goes.

YES !!.. beleive it or not, I agree with you that things can be improved - but.. in certain circumstances only... thats the key...

Guys or gals who use the car 99% of the time on public roads are the norm. If you change the use ratio then yes, a benefit from an uprated part may well help (usually in longevity as opposed to outright performance though)

Buying coil over suspension kits and race brake pads are an example of where you wouldnt benefit on , say, a 172. (in out and out perfromance terms - ie going and stopping in a faster manner in safety.

If someone, however, really wants to add certain parts for looks .. KEWL!!.. more power to their elbowz...

Its purely a matter of when items are quoted by some people - (who should be in the know, and are respected for that , amongst other things) - to increase performance for a road use, then it is only fair and appropriate that the real issues are pointed out..

For example.. will coilovers make my 172 handle better ??. answer.. depends what you use it for as gains in one area are often losses in another.

When people extol the virtues of things that are proven NOT to work.. ram air on a clio .. for example, then that is blatently wrong and misleading. Same as the use of a cheapo lambda voltage reader that is PROVEN to be innacurate at full load power settings.. there is a danger that some may rely on this device as a means of knowing what their mixture is.. again downright dangerous and misleading.

Would a set of bilsteins improve handling over the std 172 shocks. ???.. answer... no, as the shocks job is to damp, not to be a spring. If the std dampers are working, then you wont improve things, if however the std shock was overheating leading to a degredation of damping, then es, it would... but I hop you see the difference.. it wont improve anything, it will simply offer the same performance over a longer period (IF the orignals suffered this way - which they dont appear to)

Hope that makes things clearer..

Joe. :oops:
 
T

Tonys



Just put the therory of induction through the wat throtel bodies work.

If something is inacurate it can still measure against its self.

An induction kit wont do much on a 16v apart from give you a nice roar!!!
 
M

Matty

  Clio 190bhp Hybrid


Agreed Joe. I for one am changing things as they need changing. Tarox brakes which I hope are better than standard as my standard are knackered, stainless hoses, fluid change etc. As things wear out I want to repace with items of similar or higher quality with the hope that they will work as good if not better than the standard item and also hopefully last longer. My suspension has taken many knock over 65k and I only know of the large potholes etc I have hit since having it from 42k. Hence that is my next replacement. Again I want to better the original and give more options, thinking of H&R coilovers as these can be adjusted for height from standard to lower and back.

Agree with your comments as a car has to be comfortable, harder suspension is not really a great thing if it makes you wince everytime you go over a bump.

As Girlracer has stated in a previous message about FSH. Dealers she know charge you a fortune for same OEM parts you can get elsewhere for Profit. Some stuff can be bought similar cheaper or better for the same price IMO.

Tony etc: Induction Kits do work but you need to get a sealed one like the Viper or BMC CDA. These are quite new and I have seen a 148bhp at wheels RR reading from just having a CDA added to my Clio which had a K&N and magnex cat back fitted when I got it. All my K&N did was suck in hot air and make a roar. CDA is a lot quieter which proves it does work like an airbox system just better designed for airflow. Wish I had taken RR result with K&N too but that would of been another 25 quid. As car is supposed to be standard with 137bhp manufacturer quoted, I am happy with 148 considering I only have the two mods listed and car has done 65K. Only was is for someone to try it on their K&N fitted car they know the RR result for and then get another done.
 
C

Captain Slarty



Hiya m8..;)

I think this was actually a productive thread in or near the end ! lol..

I really am sorry to some of the guys here if I come over a bit harsh at times - its crap without the body language lol !.. - and as said a few times.. the beers on me when we meet up .......... so, here goes..



Yes, changing to uprated parts as old ones wear out is sensible and prudent, and often bloody cost effective !!!

its a clear and unequivacal choice m8.!

the key to my way of thinking (so you see where I am coming from) is that old to new is always a bonus dood !!.. its always a spectacular increase.. just getting back to normal is a thrill lol !.

If you can get a 1 to 5% uprate that you think will help, great. (I aint referring to a 30% uprated single part here !, I am referring to overall enhancements of the total vehicle package - , if any!!..

a +5% on handling with a -7% on comfort, used, to its potential, say, 2% of the time means you are suffering a minus value for 98% of the time you enjoy the vehicle overall...

Now,

that may be perfectly acceptable.. no probs.

So Long as its known that these negatives exist!! - you dont oft get owt for nowt so to speak.....

I know a lot of you are FULLY aware of this aspect.. ie - the law of diminishing returns and the actual effect a change will have... but many dont !, and, although its fine to praise something thats good, if it has negative points then these should be pointed out just as clearly... it may simply be, that, - it will ! LOOK SUPERB, IT WILL! INCREASE @HANDLING@ (whatever that is lol.. !) but, it will be fairly uncomfortable, or, it will make no discernable difference unless you are on a controlled circuit (track) with accurate timing and temp gauges. the areas where, often, you cannot feel the difference but the timing equipment can record it.

Now, on another side... lol..

One cannot, and I certainly dont !.. underestimate the value to the person in pleasure, self satisfaction, sense of accomplishment, wanting to push the boundrys etc etc... that one can get from messing and modding (thats what I do.. no slur etc lol)

Pleasure or enjoyment can be fairly contagious.. meaning one persons enthusiasm for something is often biased towards the major plus points.. the person seaking info is then confronted with a very personal and often one sided view of what is available.. am I doing that ???.. yep, absolutely...

now, with diametriacally opposite opinions one can come to a conclusion that is usually as good as it gets within the limits of the resources (ie - OUR collective knowledge)

Aint that fair ???

Joe.

Be Gads, I think we may have agreement...

And Nick.. lets leave it at that (or this? lol) and, I will buy the beer as said ?

..................

:confused:
 
N

Nick Read

  BMW 320d Sport


That sounds like a more reasonable position and well leave it at that on the public forum. But Joe I would like you to PM me about what you think caused a perfectly steady, repeatable reading (whether inaccurate or not) to change noticeably while the scoop was off, then change back again when it was back on. You seem to have avoided this question that I have repeatedly asked...
 
C

Captain Slarty



Hi Nick, No probs m8..

but for clarity.. and I am sorry if it didnt come over well first time.

A Lambda sensor is designed to operate around a lambda of 1. (about 14.7:1 air to fuel mass.

It is accurate within a set percentage of that figure, 10 % is good !.

at WOT you are running on a mixture (ratio - or should be !) of about 12.5 - 13:1 air mass to fuel mass.

The reading at this level is beyond the range of the Lambda sensor and the readings not only become non linear, but they also become non predictable. Its the non predicatability that makes it inaacurate. It can be sat at minimum V out (for the sensor) and the gauge can still read this as within spec.

I cant give you specifics m8, cos thats the very nature of the innacuracy that exists.

If you follow the link I posted, then I can safely say I respect their views and find the info correct.

There is a meter using a custom modified lambda to read in the 13;1 ratio that you need, I have no probs with that at all.

It is possible to buy a device called a wideband lambda sensor.. abt 500-2000 bucks !.. but, it will read consistently over a range of 10 - 20 : 1.

A full fuel map can be constructed real time from this device allowing a complete mapping session virtually automatically.

Our current systems are not capable of that resolution and cannot be used for mixture control or assessment. The manufacturer of the device you have does not guarantee operation within those parameters either.

I cant really put it any clearer m8. Its innacurate and you read into that what you want to.

But, the nature of the beast says it is not to be relyed on for any comparison

Hopefully with the help of a resident fluid dynamics guru.. (aint it a great mix here ??..:)) we can say that any ram effect is negligable .. but every little counts lol ! ??.

then, we can safely say that the effect is not just minimal, but difficult to register (or surely all suppliers would hook up a gauge and say they have the best, but no-one does.)

There is a TESTOSTERONE machine at Blackpool lol... every time I use it, it sez I is gonna get a shag.. however, much to my dissapointment and disdain.... I often dipped out...

Thats innacuracy for ya !

Joe.:)
 
M

maciek



did end up nice this topic... reasonable... :) thanks. was sometimes funny to read it (as someone said - good to a popcorn... had an interesting plot)... but had some sense overall... :)

maciek
 
N

Nick Read

  BMW 320d Sport


OK Joe thats a more thoughtful answer. I am aware of wide band sensors etc and the limitations of the factory lamda sensor and taking a voltage reading off the lamda signal line to the ECU, also the way that what I will call the voltage response curve (you know what I mean) can change. The last thing in particular I know not just from theory but from the reading that I can see when the gauge is switched on with the engine off...as the sensor heats up to operating temp the AFR reading on the gauge makes a very slow, full sweep across through stoich into lean and then beyond.

I can see where youre coming from with the out of range kind of line of argument; that definitely does seem feasible. But I think you would need to drive my car and get used to always knowing your AFR at any moment (cos its flashing in your face all the time!) to really judge the inaccuracies of it. It really is quite an interesting thing to study as you drive along - I admit it may not be perfectly accurate but it can certainly show you accurate patterns - eg. at cold idle the ECUs slowish sweep from lean to rich and vice versa while its still lumpy, on part throttle the much faster lean/stoich/rich bouncing, which averages out I suppose between stoich and lean. It would be difficult to accurately see a change in sweep range because it moves so fast. Under these kind of light loads and low speeds I dont believe the ram scoop has any real effect apart from the capability to suck in the coldest air available.

However at full throttle its a different story. I wasnt sure where you were going with the thing about WOT and the ECU not using the lambda sensor earlier on in our row. I know that the lambda signal is ignored by the ECU at WOT, although its not in my opinion because of an untrustworthy lack of accuracy...more like because emissions dont matter at full throttle and you just want full poke at a fixed and ideal power air/fuel ratio. Anyway my point is that with all the jiggery pokery that the meter shows, there is one condition in which the reading is rock solid and steady, not even wavering by the tiniest amount. This is at WOT. Regardless of whether the ECU consults the lambda sensor or not, the lambda sensor is just a dumb device, as long as its got voltage and is at operating temp it will give an oxygen signal.

Now this is why I say you really need to be in my car to appreciate what Ive been saying. The reading at WOT stays absolutely steady on one particular LED in the rich part of the gauge, it doesnt flicker in the slightest. As your road speed increases, this very, very slowly creeps downwards. I dont know what the actual absolute values are but for the moment think of it like this. At normal town speeds, say 30 or 40 mph, if you floor it you get the 3 rich light. As you keep your foot down and go through say 60 mph it is between 2 and 3 rich. As you get to around 80mph there is a more noticeable rate of leaning indicated. At 80 its usually between 1 and 2 rich and by the time you get to say 120 (on a private test track of course!) its right on the borderline between rich and stoich, but still a steady unwavering reading.

This response range on the meter is absolutely predictable and repeatable, and has never altered the whole time I have had it hooked up (about a year). The only changes happen when I have fettled with the fuel pressure and that follows a fairly straighforward rule at WOT...the more fuel pressure you dial in, the further the response range goes into the rich. The less pressure you use, the further into the stoich you get. The gauge has no connection to anything but the lambda sensor itself, it knows nothing about fuel pressure, injector duration, air temperature etc, it is simply reading the raw lambda voltage - reporting it how it sees it. Now assuming you can accept that changes in fuel pressure produce noticeable changes in the steady WOT mixture readings, can you explain to me how you account for the fact that the readings with the ram scoop disconnected followed a pattern that was the exact opposite of the fuel pressure example above.

As always the reading it gave was perfectly rock steady and unwavering, however it was much richer at WOT than usual, almost off the end of the scale (remember I run higher than normal fuel pressure) and this did not gradually creep down with increasing speed. It stayed very rich the whole time. In fact the reading was so different to what I was always used to (Ive run the same fuel pressure for the last 6 months) that I noticed it straight away. Thinking it would be time to clean out the filter I got in there and lo and behold, the scoop was disconnected.

I can see where youre coming from with the inaccuracy thing, but I find it almost impossible to believe that an instrument which has given me perfectly steady, predictable results for a year now, would suddenly read wrong and then go back to reading right again. If that were the case I would have noticed inconsistent readings at WOT before, it would be happening quite often. Hopefully I have explained more clearly what my gauge was reading and you can understand what Im trying to say here.

A parallel ( to my mind at least!) would be to think of my multimeter. Its a Maplins job, not as accurate as a £250 Fluke but suffices for my needs and its close enough to do the job. Now lets say I want to read the voltage across my bottle heater in the boot. I read it as 12.52 volts. I go and try it the next day and its 12.48 volts. The next day its reading 12.59 v. Then I test it for the last time and it reads zero. Hang on...thats weird, it was always around 12.5 volts every time I tested it, maybe that should have really been 12 or maybe 13, but theres definitely a big change now, I can see it clearly. This makes me think theres something up so I check the switch and sure enough the connection had come loose. So I connect it up again, go to read my probably inaccurate multimeter and it says 12.49 volts again. Which is more likely...that the meters innacuracy became even more unpredictable for a little while, coincidentally the same time as the switch had come loose? OR that because the switch had come loose, the meter was showing me a change in the voltage that I was used to seeing?

I know this has gone on for a bit, so PM me about it if you want to carry this on in private. I cant imagine anyone else is interested still!
 
C

Captain Slarty



Hey Nick, no probs, I think we both got a fit of the dont tell me etc syndrome lol !

And yes, I do apologise for any offense caused... its so darned difficult on a forum like this, I would really love to meet you face to face and we could talk, wave hands about lol (as all techys do !) etc.. and that way I can judge your response and vise versa....

I can only say again (albeit not much consolation.....) that accuracy is dictated by predicatability.. and that the effects you describe ARE credible unless you take that fully into account.

my only argument in this is one of accuracy... if the lambda was accurate, but non linear, then it would be relativeley simple to calibrate, and hence, over-ride, the innacuracy.

I suppose a similar argument mey be.... XYZ crank is safe to 9000 rpm..

it has failed at 7000 and at 11000, but the average failure is at, say, 9200... so, you use the crank for 2 seasons, then it lets you down....

The crank failure is catostrophic.. the lambda is not, unless relied upon.

One is obvious, the other is not..

The reproduction of the occurance can help.. so try to produce the same results again.

If you are suspicious of the accuracy, then investigate more...

Nick, I have no issues with the old adage that if you rule out the probable, then the improbable is occuring....

Not only will I buy the beer (first time only lol !), but I really think it would be a great discussion. and we BOTH could learn.

Joe.
 
N

Nick Read

  BMW 320d Sport


Seems fair enough...maybe we should swap cars as well...hehe fat chance, even my wife doesnt get in the driving seat! You mentioned a lot earlier on about getting a reading from the MAP sensor. Now Ill have no problem hooking it up and leaving a multimeter in the scuttle panel getting a peak reading; doing some repeated testing. But having looked at the wiring diagram, there seem to be 3 lines into the ECU from the sensor, and thats all. Am I right in thinking that the MAP sensor is a passive device? Will I be able to get a reading off it and what sort of range do these things work on? Lambda sensors Im ok with, I know what sort of voltages to look for. With the MAP sensor Ive got no idea. Have you ever investigated one?
 
C

Captain Slarty



Hi M8..

You should have no probs..

check for......


5v
0v (relative to chassis ground)
and anything inbetween... this will be the MAP (sorry, I said lambda before I edited it DOH !) voltage out.:)
The MMeter shouldnt cause too much agro at, say, 10 MOhm / volt input impedence..... but watch for output loading on other meters !!!!.

And yep, unfortuantely, I have investigated this at length..... ie...... I had to probe the lambda and map (as well as CTS and IAT, Fuel Inj pulse width, pressure and IGN pos relative to tdc) to make the data aquisition system to sort the turbo jobby out....:confused:.... the non linearity was a pisser !..just ended up ignoring it (lambda not map !) over 3-4k as it was bollox....

that was ........ fun........:confused:

lol

I know you aint got a ford, but anyone trying the above on a ford EEC IV unit... forget it, its a digital output only. !!!!.. but that is the exception rather than the rule, the nicoles output is std.





Joe.
 
B

Ben j



ive been offline for this week but just read through it all.....

just like to add my finishing bit......

I LOVE U GUYS!! ;)
 
S

Simon172

  CTR EK9 turbo


This makes interesting reading, as does this website:


http://www.adapco-online.com/user_arts/werner/car.jpg

Abstract

The requirements for racing car aerodynamics are far more extensive and demanding than those for passenger cars. Since many of the relevant aerodynamic features cannot be measured easily, if at all, Computational Fluid Dynamics (CFD) provides a detailed insight into the flow phenomena and helps in understanding the underlying physics.

This paper summarizes some aspects of the aerodynamic optimization process for the Opel Calibra ITC racing car, starting from the production car design and including exterior and interior aerodynamic computations, together with wind tunnel experiments.
 
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