Induction Air Feed for 197

[Mark One]

Did you miss the part of my post above where I explained the car has 5 large of MM Motorsport logging which records air temperatures at 3 different locations at upto 1000hz?

If you mean picking up an induction point on the scuttle panel then thats fine until the car in front sprays gravel over the car. If you mean on the bonnet skin itself then there is no accesible flow there without using a big drag inducing scoop with the same issues as picking up from the scuttle.

The induction point for that airbox is in the wheelarch. When at speed this is an extremely high pressure zone and using this region to provide ambient airflow into the engine bay is extensively tested.

2009 induction/filtration spec is changing as part of a package of optimisations and is picking up from the splitter or front bumper skin depending on what aero package is being run in order to aid airbox filling and minimise losses and mainly to ensure that the car spec is noise legal for the ever tightening regs imposed on 24 hour races.

Cheers
M

From a race point of view, perhaps gravel from the car in front could be a concern, but only really in edurance races. But as far as a road car goes, a relatively compact airbox and scuttle CAF could be used and eliminate that 90deg induction hose on the IK pictured.
I wasn't aware that the 197s ran a small offset rad, but i'm still confident that that design could be improved upon - I finish my degree soon, ill send you a CV lol
I think ulitmately, we are debating an IK for two separate purposes.

 

[Icarus]

From a race point of view, perhaps gravel from the car in front could be a concern, but only really in edurance races. But as far as a road car goes, a relatively compact airbox and scuttle CAF could be used and eliminate that 90deg induction hose on the IK pictured.
I wasn't aware that the 197s ran a small offset rad, but i'm still confident that that design could be improved upon - I finish my degree soon, ill send you a CV lol
I think ulitmately, we are debating an IK for two separate purposes.

At what point have I ever said the induction/filtration setup on the BPM X85 RACE CARS is for road use? The coolant rad in the BPM X85's is offset. It's not in the road cars. No one has claimed that design can't be improved either - I've stated twice that the 2009 X85 SE specification includes a different induction/filtration setup.

Tip for the future if you're going to be sending people (like me) your CV. Never, ever make sweeping statements such as "do they actually run it like that? what an epic way to loose performance " when you have no data to base this on as at best it makes you look foolish and uninformed. Also terms such as CAF and IK are huge no no's if discussing this sort of thing with race engineers/designers. Cold Air Feed - thats just silly, the most you'll ever achieve is supplying ambient temperature air to the airbox and if you are designing an induction/filtration system you should be aiming for airbox/inlet temperatures as close to ambient as possible in the situations where the car spends most of its time i.e. high speed/load in the case of a race car - IK, why is it a kit? It's an induction and filtration system. Induction Kit is a term formed by K&N's marketing department.

FWIW I should probably point out that I engineered and developed the BPM X85 Super Endurance specification and it has over 8000KM's of test and race KM's on it so far with a 100% race finish record.

Cheers
M

 

[Icarus]

CEL?

You mean fault indication? Well mine hasnt for over a year, and the 172 and 182 never did either? I'm sure i just taped up the multiplug.... Anyhow, i'm happy with regular paper filter changes, anything else is noise and £££ down the drain

CEL = Check Engine Light. Really should be called a MIL (malfunction indicator light) as it'll light up for more than engine related failures.

172/182 ignore it as far as I know. 197 ECU spec does show a failure detection for the acoustic valve actuators - I'll have a butchers tomorrow, I suppose is may just log it as a fault rather than indicate the fault.

No problem at all with changing the paper filter more often than the service schedule. Wise way to go IMHO - spend the 50 quid you saved on gin and strippers

Cheers
M

 

[Mark One]

Cold Air Feed - thats just silly, the most you'll ever achieve is supplying ambient temperature air to the airbox and if you are designing an induction/filtration system you should be aiming for airbox/inlet temperatures as close to ambient as possible in the situations where the car spends most of its time i.e. high speed/load in the case of a race car

Theres nothing silly about a Cold air feed if it's right for the application (and it often is). What you've said above is that a cold air feed can supply ambient temperatures to an airbox, and the objective is to have the airbox at ambient temperature......

The shorthand term CAF is convenient when typing on a forum and it explains the role of the part perfectly.
Why are you posting pictures of induction setups when they have no relevance to the road car about which we are talking?

I should point out that I am a cheeky young whipersnapper and I don't indend on being slated for my shorthand typing which is clear and legible
Cheers

 

[Icarus]

Theres nothing silly about a Cold air feed if it's right for the application (and it often is). What you've said above is that a cold air feed can supply ambient temperatures to an airbox, and the objective is to have the airbox at ambient temperature......

The shorthand term CAF is convenient when typing on a forum and it explains the role of the part perfectly.
Why are you posting pictures of induction setups when they have no relevance to the road car about which we are talking?

I should point out that I am a cheeky young whipersnapper and I don't indend on being slated for my shorthand typing which is clear and legible
Cheers

You've not read what I wrote have you! The point is the term is incorrect, you'll never find it in a proper specification/proposal lets put it that way. An induction/filtration setup can only ever supply the airbox with ambient temperature air. Cold Air Feed is purely a marketing term used to flog stuff.

Cheers
M

 

[Tucker]

we're on an online forum,

i'm pretty sure you're going to find one or two abbreviations

FLOL

 

[Icarus]

we're on an online forum,

i'm pretty sure you're going to find one or two abbreviations

FLOL

ROFL Nothing wrong with abbreviations! The term itself is incorrect. "Cold Air Feed" why is it cold? Define cold as a useful temperature value? Its ambient temperature, which is a term which can be defined easily i.e. "In a 22 degree centigrade ambient at 75MPH the difference between the three temperature measurment points was less than 1 degree centrigrade" Cold Air Feed is a term invented to sell aftermarket induction setups to people and help convince them they are better.

Cheers
M

 

[Mark One]

Im sorry, in future I'll call it an "ambient temperature air feed"

That's really easy to write.

 

[leeds_182]

Im sorry, in future I'll call it an "ambient temperature air feed"

That's really easy to write.

ATAF.

 

[Icarus]

ATAF.

Spot on!

 

[Icarus]

Im sorry, in future I'll call it an "ambient temperature air feed"

That's really easy to write.

Get the arse if you want to but if you end up in Motorsport or the general Automotive industry (which from your earlier post it seems like you want to) and write a technical proposal incorporating marketing phrases such as "Cold Air Feed" and "Induction Kit" or their abbreviations then it won't be taken as seriously as it deserves.

As you're offering to send me your CV in an earlier post I thought you may appreciated a slight heads up. No doubt you're a very smart chap and on course for a decent degree so don't risk f**king it up at the last minute by using 'tuner' type none accurate language/slang - being asked to write a brief technical specification is a very common part of the interview process for the likes of Bentley, Jaguar, Ford, Ricardo and Cosworth.

Cheers
M

 

[Gasket]

Get the arse if you want to but if you end up in Motorsport or the general Automotive industry (which from your earlier post it seems like you want to) and write a technical proposal incorporating marketing phrases such as "Cold Air Feed" and "Induction Kit" or their abbreviations then it won't be taken as seriously as it deserves.

As you're offering to send me your CV in an earlier post I thought you may appreciated a slight heads up. No doubt you're a very smart chap and on course for a decent degree so don't risk f**king it up at the last minute by using 'tuner' type none accurate language/slang - being asked to write a brief technical specification is a very common part of the interview process for the likes of Bentley, Jaguar, Ford, Ricardo and Cosworth.

Cheers
M

Bit of condescending advice that. What’s your degree in?

Also, just to correct an earlier point, induction systems due to the nature of fluid mechanics produce temperature variations downstream from inlet. They can be small or large depending on the pressure fluctuations.

 

[theduck]

Bit of condescending advice that. What’s your degree in?

Also, just to correct an earlier point, induction systems due to the nature of fluid mechanics produce temperature variations downstream from inlet. They can be small or large depending on the pressure fluctuations.

Do you know Mark by an chance?

 

[Icarus]

Bit of condescending advice that. What’s your degree in?

Also, just to correct an earlier point, induction systems due to the nature of fluid mechanics produce temperature variations downstream from inlet. They can be small or large depending on the pressure fluctuations.

How is that advice condescending? I've interviewed for roles with and interviewed people for roles at the companies above.

Lado here shouted out without the full facts and was called up on it. There's no arguing your way out of it when there is hundreds of GB's of data showing that his opinion was incorrect!

As for pressure effecting temperature in the pre filter region of an induction/filtration system The best you can ever achieve is ambient temperature. I'll go into this more later if requiried as I need to go Xmas shopping now.

Cheers
M

 

[Gasket]

How is that advice condescending? I've interviewed for roles with and interviewed people for roles at the companies above.

Lado here shouted out without the full facts and was called up on it. There's no arguing your way out of it when there is hundreds of GB's of data showing that his opinion was incorrect!

As for pressure effecting temperature in the pre filter region of an induction/filtration system The best you can ever achieve is ambient temperature. I'll go into this more later if requiried as I need to go Xmas shopping now.

Cheers
M

It is condescending because you are trying to tick Mark off for not using exact technical definitions and by assuming he requires advice on future job applications based on a few technical posts. This is not stage one of an interview process. I missed what your degree was by the way.

I’m sure he will use the right terminology and weight his applications accordingly when required. Is it a mandatory requirement here?

As for more information on pre-filter temperatures, don’t bother because as we both know, the pressure changes required to achieve significant temperature variations would higher than is normally experience in piston engine induction systems. Physics is physics and of course to get a true ‘colder air feed’ (I chose my words carefully), you would need a significant pressure drop. Not something easily achieved.

 

[BenR]

I am sure it is not Icarus' point to pick up on terminology, but rather the original broad and sweeping statement that 'its a good way to loose power, which as explained did not loose anything but did quite the opposite.

Then the tangental arguement arrived due to the arguementative nature when being told your wrong.

I dont know the point of talking about temp change with pressure variation as we all knows its swings and roundabout with density which is all that matters.And not to mention that when you generate supersonic flow in the induction side of a piston engine (which is easily done), you run into more problems than temp change.

This whole arguement is stupid, that design works fine and if your smart enough to understand why and Icurus' reasoning, you wouldnt argue.

 

[Mark One]

I'm not picking fights or trying to be argumentative all fun and games.

Icarus has his point that he thinks that the terms used on this forum are not suitable for the motorsport industry, fair enough, perhaps they are not. But then, this is....a forum.
I was not aware that the edurance car that icarus has been working on has a completely different rad setup, i've been enlightened now, can we move on with our lives?

I was hoping for a more friendly banter response to the CV joke there....but hey-ho.

I still have no idea why we are talking about an induction setup that is just not applicable to the road car at all, which is what the OP is after.
Ben I would argue that "the design works fine" is not a good ethic with which to approach motorsport engineering. If it can be improved, then it should be.

 

[BenR]

Its a perefctly fine ethic for the scenario.

You might be able to generate 30mb positive at 160mph with a perfectly setup induction and filtration setup. Now considering the cars do not reach those speeds, the time they spend at peak mph and the cost/reward ratio of spending time to 'improve' the system over one which already 'sees' ambient pressures and temperatures.

Besides, it takes 4 times the power to go twice as fast so 5bhp isnt going to do a thing at 160mph.

I'd argue the design works perfectly fine, you cant ignore data.

 

[B16 OJB]

so....back to my question LOL

"Any1 managed to get a cold air feed from the front bumper on the 197"

so far its a no then lol.

apart from moving my battery and radiator over 100mm

 

[Gasket]

You can also see the racing mod and application used here only gained 2 bhp over a standard Clio Cup. That would be insignificant for a road car and even for a racing application, you would have to ask yourself if was worth the effort.

 

[B16 OJB]

might just wait for throttle bodies lol

 

[Icarus]

I'd argue the design works perfectly fine, you cant ignore data.

Exactly. The changes we're making for 2009 are to make the car even more crash resistant, reduce weight and hopefully as a side point improve efficency. I'm not expecting it to make a jot of difference to power unless the engine downstream has significant changes made to it!

On the subject of data we acquire huge amounts of data every time the car goes out - in the order of several GB per hour. This includes video, two lots of lateral and longitudanl G data, GPS position ten times a second and 14 other sensors (including front/rear brake pressure) at between 1000 and 100 samples per second. As such we have a pretty good idea exactly what is going on with the car at any one time. For 2009 we will be improving the data acquisition system to include damper travel and front brake temperature.

Unfortunately the "if it can be improved it should be mantra" lasts about as long as the budget does

Cheers
M

 

[B16 OJB]

is there any advantage with a larger bore throttle body?

without changing it to cable driven if poss.

even though i no it would be alot more responsive etc..

but i would also need an omex 600 to do that wouldnt i?

 

[Icarus]

is there any advantage with a larger bore throttle body?

without changing it to cable driven if poss.

even though i no it would be alot more responsive etc..

but i would also need an omex 600 to do that wouldnt i?

No advantage to a larger bore throttle unless the standard throttle body is unable to flow sufficent air mass at WOT. If you go larger all you will see is effective WOT (i.e. engine producing maximum power for a given RPM) at a lower throttle opening which makes the car harder to drive. Standard DBW throttle body flows sufficent for at least 230bhp as this is what Renault are making on it at the moment with various next season engine packages.

Also you can't run a 197 on an Omex 600 without switching to wasted spark ignition. If you want to run COP you need an Omex 710, MBE 992, DTA S60, Motec etc. etc. etc.

Cheers
M

 

[ben_r1]

I havent, thats why the Apollo induction kit came back off and the standard set up back on, cos its managed to have a cold air feed from behind the grille, guess renault managed it then :rasp:.

 

[sideways danny]

Also you can't run a 197 on an Omex 600 without switching to wasted spark ignition. If you want to run COP you need an Omex 710, MBE 992, DTA S60, Motec etc. etc. etc.

Cheers
M

changing to wasted spark isn't the biggest issue, that's relatively cheap. You need control of the inlet cam. It's constantly variable rather than just a switch between 2 positions like the 172/182 runs, and not running this loses huge amounts of torque through the rev range. This is why we fitted the Omex 710 over the 600 (which we did use in early development)

 

[BenR]

Has nobody picked up on what Icarus does for a living yet?

I really dont thing he needs any help from anyone when it comes to management systems lol.

 

[dunlop]

he works for Pectel iirc?

 

[trile]

Has nobody picked up on what Icarus does for a living yet?

I really dont thing he needs any help from anyone when it comes to management systems lol.

my thoughts exactly...
Most of the time I read his posts knowing it's all correct but not understanding half of the terms lol.. just nodding my head like Joey from "Friends" :clown: