F4R Engine...Why so hard to tune??

[Dubai182]

Hey Guys,
A question for the technically minded CS people..
Why is the F4R engine so hard to get gains from? On say a fiesta ST an aftermarket exhaust can release close to 5/10 BHP whereas the clio will struggle for 3/4 BHP.
Is it due to being quite highly tuned already or am i talking utter cobbles? A remap on a Seat Leon can get anywhere upto 25-30BHP but to get that from the F4R engine your looking at TB's which cost well over 3k!!!!
Just curious as the reasons behind it and i want to learn a little bit about my engine.
Cue BenR,Fred,Andy,Edde....lol

 

[MATT BLACK]

Theres lots of "bolt on" things you can do with them,

Cams
gas flowed inlet manifold
air induction system
182 manifold
de-cat
re-map / ECU
Nitrous ??
weight reduction ??

I ran just short of 200 hp with the above mods ( chris n nic on here hit 197 bhp without cams ) and with a 50 shot of NOS was hitting mid 13's on the strip @ 106 mph. Even without NOS thats nearly a 28hp gain on manufacturers supposed figures. Judging from your location you probably will find it difficult to get performance parts for you car - there will be no shortage of lambo tuners i bet ??

 

[Gweebs]

I think your right in that they are quite well tuned to start with.

The gains from a Seat Leon are due to the turbo. With a remap, turbo's kick out a lot more power.

 

[Ali]

Matts's run's mid 12's and thats 440Bhp and lighter soooo.....mid 13's in a clio ain't bad with the above mods.

 

[Dubai182]

Theres lots of "bolt on" things you can do with them,

Cams
gas flowed inlet manifold
air induction system
182 manifold
de-cat
re-map / ECU
Nitrous ??
weight reduction ??

I ran just short of 200 hp with the above mods ( chris n nic on here hit 197 bhp without cams ) and with a 50 shot of NOS was hitting mid 13's on the strip @ 106 mph. Even without NOS thats nearly a 28hp gain on manufacturers supposed figures. Judging from your location you probably will find it difficult to get performance parts for you car - there will be no shortage of lambo tuners i bet ??

Yeah parts for the Clio are extremely thin on the ground here but i'm moving back home in August so thats that problem solved. However I am planning on getting TB's and cams but over 5k for that for around 225BHP is a s**t load of money to be putting into a clio. I'm willing to pay for it,the money side isn't a problem,just curious as to why its so difficult. Thanks for the info Matt.

 

[BenR]

PROPER components are near non existent, even the stuff boys are racing on i'd place in the bin. Main problem is that the market is small and people dont want to pay proper money for proper components.

The engine isnt highly tuned to start with 85bhp/ltr is pretty pants, the stock civic EG 1.6 is making 100bhp/ltr. But you need to address alot of the design problems to start making decent (and i mean reputable in the racing fraternity not road) power.

 

[Raving Drifter]

so what's the design problem of the 172 engine?

 

[16v_jon]

Its a mass produced engine, it finds its way into meganes, clios, espace's its not a racing engine and its built to a budget .... for the money its pretty good .
the big end bearings are crap the pistons are rubbish and blocks seem to vary some are cnc machined nicely some are not ive have 3 engines and they are all different with regards to quality
BenR could probably write a massive list of all the improvements but at the end of the day they aint expensive

 

[Dubai182]

But why is it so expensive to tune compared to similar sized engines as in the Fiesta ST,206 GTI 180,Seat Cupra etc. They can be all chipped and gain 10-15BHP for less than 500 notes and 500 notes on a 172/182 will get you diddly squat.

 

[Neil G]

I think your right in that they are quite well tuned to start with.

The gains from a Seat Leon are due to the turbo. With a remap, turbo's kick out a lot more power.

True...LCRs and a alot of VAG engines are easy to get power from using a simple increase in boost pressure and fuelling to match.

 

[Englebert]

Just for debating purposes, is something like the Ford Duratec a much better base engine like the F7R?

 

[Fred@BTM]

cosworth ford duratec's are very good for the money

 

[bradfincham]

The duratec is a good base engine,
10k for a full race engine putting out about 240bhp, 13k for 260bhp

I work with the duratec daily, theres been a few problems on the cosworth front but there getting sorted now and its becoming reliable.

The F4R is a new engine, to get to 200bhp wont cost a great deal but to go over that will.
Also the problem parts are s expensive as Fred will tell you im sure is there isnt the demand and competition.

If say theres was about 50 different tuners all offering different parts etc then that would drive the costs down on the parts. But the majority of people keep theres standard or lightly tune them.
Everyone has to make a living at the end of the day

 

[Fred@BTM]

same with all the RS clios

look at the V6! we offer throttle bodies for it, but they weren't in existence til we came along! but this conversion is big bucks

200bhp on an F4R is around £2K
over that your doubling the money to £4K for TB's
then turbos at £7K

its a strange market compared to say the civic Type R world, all the major renault boys are in the UK or France

Civic tuners are EVERYWHERE, USA, Japan, hong kong, australia etc etc etc

 

[Raving Drifter]

the pistons are rubbish

I saw couple of unfortunate case of 172 piston ring/piston land damage in my country. Not mine but scared me. Is this kind of damage usual in the UK?

BTW, My '03 172 cylinder head may has problem too.
Knocking sound between 3k-4k rpm with loading, more loading makes louder knocking sound.
the camshafts, roller and hydraulic look fine. what could be the reason? something wrong with the inlet valve?
The garage said that because of my bigger throttle (bore 60 to 66 mm). the sound is similar to the independent TB mod makes.
Is it reasonable?

 

[ChrisR]

But why is it so expensive to tune compared to similar sized engines as in the Fiesta ST,206 GTI 180,Seat Cupra etc. They can be all chipped and gain 10-15BHP for less than 500 notes and 500 notes on a 172/182 will get you diddly squat.

GTi-180 can't be chipped an extra 10-15bhp. Cupras have turbos.

Fiesta ST is "only" 150bhp to start with, so it's already 22 down on the Clio.

 

[BenR]

Teh duratec is a fantastic modern engine, probably the next best thing behind the K20A.

However, throw 10-13K at any modern 2ltr and you'll have those outputs, or more, on any of them.

The duratec is a good base engine,
10k for a full race engine putting out about 240bhp, 13k for 260bhp

I work with the duratec daily, theres been a few problems on the cosworth front but there getting sorted now and its becoming reliable.

The F4R is a new engine, to get to 200bhp wont cost a great deal but to go over that will.
Also the problem parts are s expensive as Fred will tell you im sure is there isnt the demand and competition.

If say theres was about 50 different tuners all offering different parts etc then that would drive the costs down on the parts. But the majority of people keep theres standard or lightly tune them.
Everyone has to make a living at the end of the day

 

[ChrisR]

hmmm K20A