Engine Conversion Idea - Help

[Joey_Essex]

Hi All,

Now im sure this is a re-post, yet i have a few questions and would like some tech advice.

So im planning on Turbo'ing the Clio pottentially in march, once ive got a bit of money put aside. Ive been looking at a few options. Ive spoken to engine dynamics who i believe can do a low boost turbo for about the £2,500 - £3,000 mark. Ive used Engine Dynamics a few times now and really like them.

However was also thinking about maybe using the megan turbo'ed engine. Now in principle i know they are roughtly the same block, one turbo'ed megan, and one not the clio. Oviously have different internals.

So my questions are:

1. Would you Turbo the clio engine, or just do an engine conversion to the megan lump?
2. If you did the engine conversion, is there any known big issues to over come, or is it more of a simple straight swap
3. Have many people actually done the megan conversion?
4. Is the cost more to do the engine conversion or to have a turbo fitted to the standard engine?

Another point to be made is that i will prob over the next year or so be buying a spare lump and gear box, im planning on making the car more track than road use, so a spare engine and gear box never go a miss. So if i did buy a megan lump it in some respect would mean i had the spare lump sitting about, saving me having to.

Guys many thanks in advance for your help!

 

[Addicted]

I'd get the Megane engine personally, you're kinda guaranteed less problems due to it being turbo'd at factory (internals can definitely take it etc) - plus then it's more about getting a map/bigger turbo then and maybe you'll see better gains?

None of my post is factual though as I've no idea how they differ internally, but for me that would make more sense.

 

[Joey_Essex]

I'd get the Megane engine personally, you're kinda guaranteed less problems due to it being turbo'd at factory (internals can definitely take it etc) - plus then it's more about getting a map/bigger turbo then and maybe you'll see better gains?

None of my post is factual though as I've no idea how they differ internally, but for me that would make more sense.

See this is what im thinking... I can also do cambelt ect... myself (with a friend) before the lumps put in, looking at getting a bigger turbo, intercooler ect... but im just wondering why i see more people turbo'ing the clio engine and not putting the megan engine in.

Thanks for you advice mate!

Im hoping chip might pop up as he knows his stuff and will know if this can be done!

 

[Jekyll]

Pm andyRG mate, as he's done a meggy turbo'd clio

LewisTaylor and Laine_16v are both doing a turbo clio atm (Laine_16v is 172, Lewis is 182) so might be worth dropping them a pm

Also have a look in here:

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?635504-How-to-build-a-genuine-300-Turbo-Clio

 

[Martin.]

I have literally no idea. But what's been said is what I was thinking. Easier to swap for a Meg engine etc which is already more power at factory.

However I spoke to Ktec briefly. They said it's a tough job because of the bigger size lump or something.

Not much help I know but I thought I'd share my 2pence. I'd be interested to hear the conclusion to this too.

 

[not normal dan]

I'd personally go down the Megane route too, it seems to being getting the results an less problematic to live with but don't quote me on that. From what I've on Lewis's thread the gearbox bolt pattern needs altering on the Megane block to accept the Clio box, the manifold needs to be altered/replaced an the sump needs swapping but these are only things I've read off Lewis an andyrg. As said keep an eye on there threads or drop them a pm but I thing a standard f4rt on some after market management would give you a quick Clio for sure.

 

[Joey_Essex]

I'd personally go down the Megane route too, it seems to being getting the results an less problematic to live with but don't quote me on that. From what I've on Lewis's thread the gearbox bolt pattern needs altering on the Megane block to accept the Clio box, the manifold needs to be altered/replaced an the sump needs swapping but these are only things I've read off Lewis an andyrg. As said keep an eye on there threads or drop them a pm but I thing a standard f4rt on some after market management would give you a quick Clio for sure.

Cheers for the above guys, i will take a look.

So a silly question, but what about running the megan engine, box and ecu (will it work) ?

 

[not normal dan]

Cheers for the above guys, i will take a look.

So a silly question, but what about running the megan engine, box and ecu (will it work) ?

I pretty sure theres clearence issues with the megane box in the 1*2's due to them being a 6 speed. As for management I'm not sure I know ktec with there 197 used a gen90, I'm sure someone more knowlegeable will be along to answer that one soon

 

[Joey_Essex]

I pretty sure theres clearence issues with the megane box in the 1*2's due to them being a 6 speed. As for management I'm not sure I know ktec with there 197 used a gen90, I'm sure someone more knowlegeable will be along to answer that one soon

Cheers mate... would be good to put the megan box in, but it prob means so serrious structual work and to much aggg! but at the same time, it might be better long term (if its possiable) as you'ed have a slightly strong box id assume!

 

[not normal dan]

Cheers mate... would be good to put the megan box in, but it prob means so serrious structual work and to much aggg! but at the same time, it might be better long term (if its possiable) as you'ed have a slightly strong box id assume!

Strength wise I have noticed alot of the boost guys running clio dci boxes as they can handle the torque better I imagine with them designed for the diesels. Theres alot of talk about the scoff "vag box" conversion but I don't see it being a cheap job but if you want that extra reliability an plan on keeping an using the car in anger it could be worth it. Take a look at the sticky regarding boosted clio's as It will more then likely cover the gearbox reliabilty concerns.

 

[not normal dan]

GEARBOX
It's well documented on here that after destroying my OE box I swapped to a JC5-128 DCi box. I found it a great set up for a genuine 300+bhp clio on both road and track, AndyRG tried one when his clio was around 270bhp and hated it. Based on this I'd stick with an OE box sub 300 bhp.

I stuck with the OE fly wheel but ran a Helix paddle clutch. I'm not going to lie it was horrible, there was very little pedal travel from fully disengaged to fully engaged which resulted in everyone who ever drove it stalling it repeatedly. I would also say the longetivity of them wasn't overly impressive so it's something to bare in mind. It does work though and I didn't experience any slip or issues on either road or track

Copied from the sticky regarding 300bhp clio build

 

[ShadowWalker]

Good info but is there any reason why I cannot see the information in the link

I get a message saying I do not have enough privileges

 

[Spinksy]

Good info but is there any reason why I cannot see the information in the link

I get a message saying I do not have enough privileges

You need to pay the £12 to become a full member to have access to all areas of the forum mate

 

[Chip-mk1]

Strength wise I have noticed alot of the boost guys running clio dci boxes as they can handle the torque better I imagine with them designed for the diesels. Theres alot of talk about the scoff "vag box" conversion but I don't see it being a cheap job but if you want that extra reliability an plan on keeping an using the car in anger it could be worth it. Take a look at the sticky regarding boosted clio's as It will more then likely cover the gearbox reliabilty concerns.

I am not aware of anyway in which the DCI box is stronger, shaft size and bearings are the same I think, more likely if people are running them its down to the ratios.

As for the original question.

Megane pistons are poorly made non forged ones, as are clio, the rods are slightly better on the megane but only slightly, I see no real reason to use the megane engine unless you specifically want to be on OEM ECU, which Ive heard isnt too hard to do in the mk2 clio but I have never done myself (there was a thread on here somewhere about it)


Personally I would go aftermarket though to allow more control for mapping.

 

[ShadowWalker]

thanks for the reply, I will look in to it

 

[ShadowWalker]

I am not aware of anyway in which the DCI box is stronger, shaft size and bearings are the same I think, more likely if people are running them its down to the ratios.

As for the original question.

Megane pistons are poorly made non forged ones, as are clio, the rods are slightly better on the megane but only slightly, I see no real reason to use the megane engine unless you specifically want to be on OEM ECU, which Ive heard isnt too hard to do in the mk2 clio but I have never done myself (there was a thread on here somewhere about it)


Personally I would go aftermarket though to allow more control for mapping.

I'm new to Renaults but I suspect the DCI gearbox ratios to be longer and longer final drive for sure.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I'm new to Renaults but I suspect the DCI gearbox ratios to be slightly longer and longer final drive for sure.

The final drive is drastically different mate, DCI 4th is more or less the same as 172 5th as a result.

But as my turbo does 170mph anyway on the 172 box, I see no point in going taller?

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Yupp only ratios on the dci box make it different

f**k all difference inside the ratio of gears more spread out for lowdown torque handling

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yupp only ratios on the dci box make it different

f**k all difference inside apart from the gears more spread out for lowdown torque handling

Its not a box I personally would want to use on a high revving 172 turbo, but if you build one that dies out of puff before 6K then could be useful I guess!

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Those boxes are more than good for a dci. No power after 4700rpm lol

yet to see when it destroys it's with my engine build

 

[Chip-mk1]

Those boxes are more than good for a dci. No power after 4700rpm lol

yet to see when it destroys it's with my engine build

Mine has been fine with over 300lbft and I still have 7Krpm on tap as well, you arent likely to see that I assume?
So I would think yours should last fairly well.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

I'm hoping I get near 370NM at a push
probs could go more but the head flow isn't great

will see what happens. My 10k old clutch is already slipping like f**k on full load with the injection light on ( old engine, new one will have more fueling )

BUT I'm going over to see Fred as we have discussed about making it abit more revving

All I can say is traction will be lost when planting it

edit: I still need to teach myself Ilbs/ft and NM differences

 

[Chip-mk1]

300lbft is roughly 400NM mate.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Hmm , mapped 100s aren't far of 172 .torque I think

might be abit optimistic about my number then
I haven't really seen a graph of a mapped dci to even think what I could achieve.

did mike ever take a reading of his hybrid dci?

 

[George182]

Yup my gearbox seems to be holding up well with nearly 300lbft.

Traction can be an issue.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Hmm , mapped 100s aren't far of 172 .torque I think

might be abit optimistic about my number then
I haven't really seen a graph of a mapped dci to even think what I could achieve.

did mike ever take a reading of his hybrid dci?

No annoyingly Mike never had it on the rollers as he did all his mapping on it on the road.

To me it felt like it was probably over 200lbft though, maybe 220, so about 300NM at a guess.

A mapped DCI100 will do about 180lbft/240NM roughly on a standard engine from what I have seen.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

No annoyingly Mike never had it on the rollers as he did all his mapping on it on the road.

To me it felt like it was probably over 200lbft though, maybe 220, so about 300NM at a guess.

A mapped DCI100 will do about 180lbft/240NM roughly on a standard engine from what I have seen.

looks like I'm in for fun then. I've asked mike to map mine once I'm done faffing about
rather excited lol

 

[ShadowWalker]

The final drive is drastically different mate, DCI 4th is more or less the same as 172 5th as a result.

But as my turbo does 170mph anyway on the 172 box, I see no point in going taller?

Isn't that what I said ?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Isn't that what I said ?

Sort of.

You said:

I'm new to Renaults but I suspect the DCI gearbox ratios to be slightly longer and longer final drive for sure.

Which I then followed up with more details of the fact that the DCI is so much taller final drive it makes 4th as tall as 5th.



Then I added some specifics of what the standard box will do, and questioned the validity of going any taller as who wants to be able to 170mph in 4th gear and then have a 5th thats completely redundant, as it will be at the expense of all the other gears being wider apart to achieve it, something you rarely want for performance.


Hope that answers your query.

 

[ShadowWalker]

Yes thank you

Do you know the actual ratios of the 172 box and a dci box, personally I would like a taller final drive on a standard 172 for the motorway as I do a lot of miles and the 172 box seem to rev quite high at about 3400 rpm at 70mph, I would like less strain on the engine and better RPM

are all the gears swappable between the two boxes ? are there any other , do any of the people carriers or much bigger cars have the same box ?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yes thank you

Do you know the actual ratios of the 172 box and a dci box, personally I would like a taller final drive on a standard 172 for the motorway as I do a lot of miles and the 172 box seem to rev quite high at about 3400 rpm at 70mph, I would like less strain on the engine and better RPM

are all the gears swappable between the two boxes ? are there any other , do any of the people carriers or much bigger cars have the same box ?

which 172 do you have? Im guessing from the speed/rpm you are saying that its a Ph2?

If its a ph2, you could just fit a ph1 box, all the same ratios but a taller diff.

Its 5% taller roughly, so your 3400rpm, would drop to more like 3200

The diesel, would be more like 2500 IIRC, and would become really unresponsive, but I guess you could always change down to 4th to get it back to where it was, but it would make all the gears feel very wide apart in you ever drive it in a sporty manner.