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Congrats to DanPl6 on cracking 200bhp (rs2 + 197 cams)
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Ph1 172 & Clio DCi
I think you'd make more power than that but the injectors wouldn't be able to flow the fuel you'd require.
438s are a lot hotter than 197 cams so it would fly past 200, but like mike says you'd probably run out of Injector duration on the standard hardware.
Lesley's and dans both have cruise control added as well on this setup, and retain the Aircon so there is literally no downside to it (other than initial outlay of course it's an expensive change to make to a car of such low value)
Could you not just fit megane injectors then and map it on standard ecu? or did i misunderstand that!
You can say that about any car though Chip! But we all still do it ha
172 cup RS2 - 330ci
Hasn't someone tried this combination before and it failed?
Chris205
ClioSport Club Member
Many Things
Chip - Why do you say cams are dead money? Do you mean you pay the money they're in and it will cost you similar costs to remove them than you'd get back if you sold them?
Surely when the RS2 is removed if you're selling up you'll still have to go back to the original place that mapped it and get the standard map back on it which i doubt will be free.
Can I just ask one little question:
When the RS2 was first introduced and RS Tuning were mapping the majority of the cars, the results werent great and people were pretty furious with the little gains, however now you (chip) and mike seem to be mapping them the gains seem to be greater and owners happier with the product? I know JamesT87 was really impressed with his on the new engine?
I was pretty sure I'd decided well and truely against the RS2 but these more recent results are more impressive than over the last few years
Surely when the RS2 is removed if you're selling up you'll still have to go back to the original place that mapped it and get the standard map back on it which i doubt will be free.
Can I just ask one little question:
When the RS2 was first introduced and RS Tuning were mapping the majority of the cars, the results werent great and people were pretty furious with the little gains, however now you (chip) and mike seem to be mapping them the gains seem to be greater and owners happier with the product? I know JamesT87 was really impressed with his on the new engine?
I was pretty sure I'd decided well and truely against the RS2 but these more recent results are more impressive than over the last few years
Think it was more down to timing last time actually.
Mine made good power at RSTuning, though mine was one of the developent cars and first to be mapped so it took Paul hours to map it. I also think that timing is a big factor on whether the car will make good gains from the RS2, even on standard cams. I found out that the inlet cam on mine had some extra advance when it was timed up/having the cambelt done. I wont go into other peoples cars with regards to the mapping though.
Ph1 172 & Clio DCi
I'd imagine they were if the standard can timing marks were used!
Inlet manifolds and cam timing have been very over looked with this whole argument.
I'm sure I could get more from 197/RS2 but the time and money wouldn't make it viable.
Ph1 172 & Clio DCi
Correct. It also about cracking where the information is stored in the ECU which can take Hours.
From a business point if view unless your going to map 15-20+ Clios with R26 injectors, its not worth the effort.
182cup & 172 racecar
We ended up keeping the standard injectors in ours.
172 cup RS2 - 330ci
Isn't yours 215bhp?
182cup & 172 racecar
Yes, and it runs on 95ron fuel.
James got over 200bhp with C&B cams and the RS2, but he didnt like the power delivery coming on then dieing off a bit and then pulling strong again, ie much like the cams do on the standard inlet (but obviously with more power) so him and Tom decided that was not acceptable as they were obsessed with as flat a curve as possible.
I think that playing with the cam timing and some more mapping would have yielded a smoother result, but thats not "blaming" anyone its just a case of there being no development budget for that side of things as it wasnt what JMS were interested in doing and its a royal pain in the arse to change cam timing on these engines as standard, I think that if someone bothers to develop a hotter cam profile than the 197 set there will be some gains from it, dont forget that if you go by what some of the "experts" on CS think neither the 197 cams or the rs2 are any good for a 172, and yet here they are making over 200bhp on arguably the most respected set of rollers in the UK and with utterly no downside in terms of loss of aircon or cruise etc.
Dont get me wrong though, as Ive said for the whole of this thread bodies and cams are ALWAYS going to be better for performance figures if its a trackday car where aircon and cruise etc dont matter.
If you could find an injector that was very close in size, like literally just a few percent bigger, then you would get away with not rescaling them, slightly increased fuel pressure (how I assume Tony does it) would also work too although thats simpler to achieve on a ph1 than a ph2.
182cup & 172 racecar
What's the spec of your engine Tony? May have to have a ride in it to see what it's like?
Copied from our website.
From this point it was a job of assembly and clearance checking. We decided to stick with the stock pistons for cost and reliability reasons so these were acid cleaned and came up like new. Piston ring end gaps all checked and adjusted where necessary in freshly honed bores. Main and big bearing clearances plastigauged, and crank thrust float measured.The bottom end was now fresh and solid.
The cylinder head was an area we had spoken at some length about improving. The head was in poor condition but was able to be saved. The ph1 172 head as already mentioned is generally regarded as the best standard head for performance, so as we had this for a starting point we were very happy. Still room for improvement though, and a few hours of fettling later, a reworked head which should improve the breathing of the engine all round.
The stock valves on a Renault F4R are a two 2 piece valve with the head friction welded to the stem. This has been known to lead to failure in extreme cases. As our main brief to Dan was reliability we opted for a set of one piece Supertech valves. Inconel exhaust and nitrided inlets.
Cams: Another subject of lengthy conversation. We came to the decision that due to retaining the stock pistons, and thus limiting cam choice, we would use Catcams 421 profile. Dan reported seeing very good results from them with Throttle bodies. As luck would have it a low mileage set became available at just the right time. We have also retained the VVT/De-Phaser
So it was just a case of building it all up with new seals, gaskets, water pump etc and it was ready for fitting.
Having all the parts to hand, checked and ready made fitting the engine a straight forward job. It fired up nicely and after a sorting a few fuel and coolant leaks all was well. The fuel rail we have been using was the stock Renault item. Now the car is up and running again we are going to swap to an AT power rail for reliability and also run the fuel pressure a little higher. Lots of small jobs to do before it goes for calibration, once again at Tour De Force.
182cup & 172 racecar
Yes Chip, higher pressure. (don't ask me what though)
182cup & 172 racecar
I know, we have this conversation before Chip.
Ah fair enough, i dont recall that tbh, No worries mate, just didnt want anyone reading it and getting slightly the wrong impression.
Shame there aren't any sensible priced proper one piece to use, would love some for my turbo but had to settle for supertechs on that too.
182cup & 172 racecar
Best of a bad job really.
For the rpm you and Lesley are pulling, or under 8k and given there is no turbo to cause high egt, I'm sure they are perfectly fine
plus just being new not 100k miles of fatigue helps of course.
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