Clio 4RS guesstimate prices (almost) released...

[Al_G]

I just don't see the need for them in a hot hatch. A big cruiser like a BMW, yes. A Big 5.0 V10 in a lambo, yes. But in a 1.6 Clio?? It's hardly going to have an extremely heavy clutch is it! Some cars, your TT for example, are better suited to an auto. But again, I can't see how a clio 1.6 is. The same as a 1.8T Audi TT is better with a manual box. The 3.2 is better with the DSG.

Let's not forget that Renault Automatics have ALWAYS been problematic!!

Fair enough if Renault wanted to try this option, but why not offer a manual box for normal people?? I just don't get it.

You have a point.

I'd be put off one because of the repair costs (we know plenty will go wrong).

I'm guessing on the above basis depreciation will be mega.

 

[Gally]

I was a bit worried about this box considering how bad their manuals have been. Sloppy both mk2/3 and chocolate in the mk3.

They should just have mated the juke box with a few mods. I love that car!

 

[Matthew]

Simple fact is, I wouldn't buy a car I didn't like aesthetically.

I don't like the look of this. Atall.

No flared arches, nothing.

The fiesta/polo GTI/Ibiza look ten times better IMO.

 

[Fred@BTM]

No rush big guy. Wrote it on the phone so had no idea whether it actually went or not!

Anyway back to this. Dan would you accept any argument that supercars do just fine with flappy paddles. They are drivers cars. Or am I being silly?

What i'm trying to say is the chassis and steering would have to be the best ever made for you to forgive the paddle idea.

In other words the supercars get away with it because they are so good.

Personally in this day and age it's going to be very difficult to get back to that Trophy, 205 feel. It'll continue to go the other way as you know.

In saying that the 200/197 were both good drives and both still modern per se.

no you are wrong, 98% of "supercars" are sold as autos/paddle (whatever you want to call it) beacuse 100% of buyers have money but also 98% of buyers can't drive for s**t, ie they're buying them to show off, plus the manual cars are harder to drive! Take my old boss who owns 160+ supercars (yes one hundred and sixty PLUS, no joke, he owns drivers dream days/everyman motor racing) he can drive WHATEVER he wants WHENEVER he wants, he drives a Range Rover sport supercharged, a Gallardo Balboni (manual) a VXR8 (manual) and airel atoms, himself, instructors and me say the flappy paddle stuff is crap, even the MP4-12C and the 458 AND the Aventador, they NEED manual options for real drivers! He runs all flappy paddle cars because people aren't use to it and can't knacker them up and hence go slower.

 

[DanFreemanPhoto]

Anyway back to this. Dan would you accept any argument that supercars do just fine with flappy paddles. They are drivers cars. Or am I being silly?

errr....surely a proper drivers car would have a proper gearbox? (ie a manual)

 

[Tony Hunter]

No rush big guy. Wrote it on the phone so had no idea whether it actually went or not!

Anyway back to this. Dan would you accept any argument that supercars do just fine with flappy paddles. They are drivers cars. Or am I being silly?

What i'm trying to say is the chassis and steering would have to be the best ever made for you to forgive the paddle idea.

In other words the supercars get away with it because they are so good.

Personally in this day and age it's going to be very difficult to get back to that Trophy, 205 feel. It'll continue to go the other way as you know.

In saying that the 200/197 were both good drives and both still modern per se.

But Gally, most people who buy super cars, can't drive for toffee. Don't even know what a gearbox is.

 

[jamier27]

Shame the gearbox isn't an option yes but I bet there will be a lot of converts on the auto box.

The amount of people who were going for the manual in the m135i and were persuaded to try the auto in the other demo car...
95% I bet ordered the auto!
Ok it's a clio with a lot less power but still it's not a revvy N/A engine it's a lazier turbo lump which might suit it too.


I am very disappointed to see that it has similar stance to a train. Would have rather paid an extra 1500 on rrp for some flared arches etc regardless of what the rrp will end up

 

[Matt W]

After driving a ibiza cupra with dsg (or whatever it's called) i'm saddened by the lack of manual option.
Maybe after a year or so of renault paying nillions for replacement gearboxes they'll chuck in a manual gearbox. And Brembos. And flared arches. And Recaros

 

[JonC219]

Might have been said but I'm not reading through it all

At £23ishK you can get a 'Burg Corsa, with Bilsteins, diff, Recaros and exclusivity. I know it's a Vauxhall. But likes been said at least it looks like a hot hatch with decent bits!

 

[jamier27]

Corsa must be due an overhaul soon? Wonder how much prices will be on new corsa Vxr if current one is 22k?

 

[Sargara]

Let's not forget that Renault Automatics have ALWAYS been problematic!!

Fair enough if Renault wanted to try this option, but why not offer a manual box for normal people?? I just don't get it.

Thats assuming its even a Renault box though, my money is on it being a Nissan box like the Meganes and not a Renault box like the Clios currently. Hopefully they learnt their lesson with the current Mk3 box swap ratio.

 

[Gally]

But Gally, most people who buy super cars, can't drive for toffee. Don't even know what a gearbox is.

errr....surely a proper drivers car would have a proper gearbox? (ie a manual)

no you are wrong, 98% of "supercars" are sold as autos/paddle (whatever you want to call it) beacuse 100% of buyers have money but also 98% of buyers can't drive for s**t, ie they're buying them to show off, plus the manual cars are harder to drive! Take my old boss who owns 160+ supercars (yes one hundred and sixty PLUS, no joke, he owns drivers dream days/everyman motor racing) he can drive WHATEVER he wants WHENEVER he wants, he drives a Range Rover sport supercharged, a Gallardo Balboni (manual) a VXR8 (manual) and airel atoms, himself, instructors and me say the flappy paddle stuff is crap, even the MP4-12C and the 458 AND the Aventador, they NEED manual options for real drivers! He runs all flappy paddle cars because people aren't use to it and can't knacker them up and hence go slower.

Thanks chaps. The Balboni is the perfect example that even Lambo know what makes a drivers car.

 

[Rob]

No rush big guy. Wrote it on the phone so had no idea whether it actually went or not!

Anyway back to this. Dan would you accept any argument that supercars do just fine with flappy paddles. They are drivers cars. Or am I being silly?

What i'm trying to say is the chassis and steering would have to be the best ever made for you to forgive the paddle idea.

In other words the supercars get away with it because they are so good.

Personally in this day and age it's going to be very difficult to get back to that Trophy, 205 feel. It'll continue to go the other way as you know.

In saying that the 200/197 were both good drives and both still modern per se.

Please tell me you're trolling???

Supercars are bought by people with a lot of money, and more often than not, no idea how to drive.

Can you imagine how many times "Tony" that owns a string of local barber shops would hit the limiter in a manual lambo?

I just don't see this 1.6T being earth shatteringly quick enough to warrant some paddles that'll probably snap off or wear away after 18 months.

 

[Gally]

I didn't say the owners could drive but the cars can still be driven quickly round track by a good driver and enjoy it. I'm not saying it would as much fun as a 172 cup but the point stands, Porkie is a good example, isn't his Porkie flappy paddle? But simply loves his Exige and Cup.

It's not that the cars are bad drivers cars i'm guessing you mean the box changes it from being a drivers car?

 

[Rob]

I'd say so yes.

In a 1.6T I just wouldn't say there's enough pace to warrant using the paddles. Personally, my z4 hasn't got enough pace to warrant paddles! I don't snatch at the gear change whilst really hammering it, I can just drive very enthusiastically and enjoy putting the car through it's paces. Put me in a Lambo/Rari and I'm fairly surely I couldn't drive at the top end of the car and be able to steer and change gear effectively at the same time without quite some practice.

IMO the paddles will make the Clio too easy. The best thing for me about the ph1 was getting it into the right gear at the right moment whilst hammering it around some country lanes, that moment when you're holding the wheel around a sweeping bend, have to let one hand off the wheel and down change ready for a tight corner, keeping the car on the boil. With paddles I'd just flick my finger both hands on the wheel, no drama, no excitement, no real skill required.

That "skill" or excitement is why the Clio's are fun.

 

[Gally]

I totally agree it's not the kind of car that needs or should have flappy paddle or be the only option anyway. I've not doubt they could have charged extra and people would have specced one, stupid people or older people who still like hot hatches.

 

[Thrust-Rated]

Who knows, the gear box may be phenomenal... It probably won't be though

 

[Rob]

It doesn't matter if it's better than Christmas, it's still like driving a playstation game.

There's just not enough challenge in two pedal and right hand change up, left hand change down unless I'm being thrown through time and space by a v12

 

[Thrust-Rated]

I do agree there. I know what who are saying with it not having the umph to have paddles like a supercar does.

I just feel, Renault, surely would have had some huge debates with making this decision at being an auto only.
It will mostly be shocking though and Renault will have ruined the Renault sport Clio

 

[MarkCup]

Surely some of the reasoning behind it is to do with efficiency?

Can't modern DSG 'boxes accelerate quicker than the equivalent manual and also return better MPG?

If so, eventually ALL cars are likely to come with them, just the same as how turbo engines are now replacing NA.

 

[182tev]

What a complete RS let down !!

 

[Gally]

Surely some of the reasoning behind it is to do with efficiency?

Can't modern DSG 'boxes accelerate quicker than the equivalent manual and also return better MPG?

If so, eventually ALL cars are likely to come with them, just the same as how turbo engines are now replacing NA.

Both correct and they're getting much lighter, negating the weight difference.

New 911/991 GT3 will offer PDK by the looks of it. http://www.pistonheads.com/news/default.asp?storyId=26938 PDK is another awesome paddle shift box.

 

[Hixle]

Could be the best paddle box in the world and change gear at 0.00000000123 milliseconds, but I'd never choose to drive a car with one over a manual box. I enjoy driving, and since I don't drive like a loon, a lot of the enjoyment I get is from H&T/Rev matching. Sad, I know, but I'd always feel that part of the overall driving experience is missed through an auto/semi-auto box.

As Mark says though, it'll soon become the norm.

 

[MarkCup]

Anyone have any idea of what the CO2 rating is for the RS? Would be interesting to see how it stacks up against the competition that run manual 'boxes to see if there's any benefit there.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Paddles will melt anyway, along with the steering wheel.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I think there is an excessive amount of hate for paddles in this thread TBH, Im not a huge fan of them in general, but when its a decent system it doesnt ruin the driving feel of involvement as much as implied here IME.

Ferrari F430 ones for example I thought worked brilliantly when I drove porkies one, so if its anything like that I dont think it will ruin the car, so although overall I do still prefer a proper gear lever and clutch arrangement I'd like to drive one before making a final decision.

 

[Rob]

I think there is an excessive amount of hate for paddles in this thread TBH, Im not a huge fan of them in general, but when its a decent system it doesnt ruin the driving feel of involvement as much as implied here IME.

Ferrari F430 ones for example I thought worked brilliantly when I drove porkies one, so if its anything like that I dont think it will ruin the car, so although overall I do still prefer a proper gear lever and clutch arrangement I'd like to drive one before making a final decision.

So, we're comparing it to a supercar again?

I agree a paddle system can work brilliantly in a very fast car (largely due to necessity for a lot of drivers), but do you not think that in a "slow" car it's just not very exciting?

I wouldn't say there an "excessive" amount of hate in the slightest. You take what most of us consider to be the best range of hot hatches on the market, then take away a manual gearbox option which for 90% of us is a HUGE deal when owning a car? I've never owned a auto, and unless I was buying a 5 series or similar never would.

 

[The Boosh!]

The EDC in the new car will be class leading Rob. We're comparing it to supercars because there's nothing else to compare it too. Well actually I suppose you could use the Polo GTI, as you get DSG on that - Critics of that comment on the ability of the chassis though, not the 'crap gearbox'. The point he's trying to make is, they can be good if done correctly, and people are judging this car based on speculation. Fair enough, judge the looks based on the pictures, but saying it won't be an involving drive and that they've ruined the car before even driving it is massively narrow minded.

So, we're comparing it to a supercar again?

I agree a paddle system can work brilliantly in a very fast car (largely due to necessity for a lot of drivers), but do you not think that in a "slow" car it's just not very exciting?

I wouldn't say there an "excessive" amount of hate in the slightest. You take what most of us consider to be the best range of hot hatches on the market, then take away a manual gearbox option which for 90% of us is a HUGE deal when owning a car? I've never owned a auto, and unless I was buying a 5 series or similar never would.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Rob, supercar technology filters down into lower models, Im hoping that when renault have started from scratch on this thats where they have been looking for inspiration as to how the box should change, Im not suggesting for a second that the two cars as a whole are competitors for each other, Im merely saying that the only way the paddles wont ruin the experience is if they are on a par with supercar ones in terms of the change speed etc, it they end up slushy rubbish then it will really ruin the car but until I have driven one or even spoke to someone who has I wont know.
Ie the devil is in the detail with this sort of change as to if it takes away from the experience massively or not, even on the F430 I would prefer a stick, but thats cause im old, the playstation generation who will be buying these cars on finance actually like the idea of paddles I would wager, so long as they work well.

 

[Christopher]

North of £20k?! Are they on crack?

I suppose that stupid twin-clutch 'box won't pay for itself.

I still want to drive one though... but I have a feeling I'll be glad to get back in the 200.

This month's EVO has a nice piece on the 200. Just sayin'

 

[Rob]

The EDC in the new car will be class leading Rob. We're comparing it to supercars because there's nothing else to compare it too. Well actually I suppose you could use the Polo GTI, as you get DSG on that - Critics of that comment on the ability of the chassis though, not the 'crap gearbox'. The point he's trying to make is, they can be good if done correctly, and people are judging this car based on speculation. Fair enough, judge the looks based on the pictures, but saying it won't be an involving drive and that they've ruined the car before even driving it is massively narrow minded.

The DSG is an option on the Polo though right?

It just seems insanity to me to develop a hot hatch and then limit the gearbox like that. The reason I damn it before driving it is because road driving just won't be fun any more. Sure, it'll still be great on track, you can make it feel alive, but the things I enjoy about fast road driving would be gone and no "amazing chasis" could change that. I don't think I'd ever consider buying one, and it's the first Clio of the RS range I could say that about.

I just honestly do not understand how, as a car to enjoy on the road, this will give you anything close to the experience that a manual car does. Basically, I drive from my house to my favourite dual carriage way with about 8 roundabouts.. to negotiate this in the new RS, I keep both hands on the wheel, stamp on the right pedal and press my right hand until I hit a roundabout, slam on the brakes, use my left hand, stamp on the right pedal rinse and repeat.

Chip I hear wat you're saying, playstation generation and all that, but IMO,when the playstation generation grow up (myself included) you find driving a real car is so much more fun than the arcades.

I'd like to be proved wrong I just don't think it's possible.

 

[The Boosh!]

No, DSG is standard on it I think pal. The key flaw in your argument is in bold. How can you say road driving won't be fun anymore if you've not driven it? That's based on preconceptions of other flappy paddles - I think we should wait and judge this one on it's own merits.

When have Renaultsport ever made a bad car?

The DSG is an option on the Polo though right?

It just seems insanity to me to develop a hot hatch and then limit the gearbox like that. The reason I damn it before driving it is because road driving just won't be fun any more. Sure, it'll still be great on track, you can make it feel alive, but the things I enjoy about fast road driving would be gone and no "amazing chasis" could change that. I don't think I'd ever consider buying one, and it's the first Clio of the RS range I could say that about.

I just honestly do not understand how, as a car to enjoy on the road, this will give you anything close to the experience that a manual car does. Basically, I drive from my house to my favourite dual carriage way with about 8 roundabouts.. to negotiate this in the new RS, I keep both hands on the wheel, stamp on the right pedal and press my right hand until I hit a roundabout, slam on the brakes, use my left hand, stamp on the right pedal rinse and repeat.

Chip I hear wat you're saying, playstation generation and all that, but IMO,when the playstation generation grow up (myself included) you find driving a real car is so much more fun than the arcades.

I'd like to be proved wrong I just don't think it's possible.

 

[Christopher]

When have Renaultsport ever made a bad car?

Early 197? Early 225?

Not bad, but hardly class-leading.

My issue with the EDC is how broad they've made it. Renaultsport traditionally makes cars for people with a very particular mindset when choosing a car. They make focussed products and are all the better for it. They never seemed to be sales/gimmick-driven; it was all about the drive.

The EDC has lost some of this already by trying to appeal to as many people as possible, IMO. It looks like the brand managers have won.

I have no doubt that it'll be a superb car to drive and the chassis will be amazing, but the fact it shares the same structure as the £11k car and has no manual option will rule it out for me. It just doest seem bespoke enough for me. That's just my opinion; I'm sure they won't care and will sell loads more than they did Mk2 and Mk3 RS models. Personally, I like to think that's not the point and certainly hasn't been in the past.

 

[Lal B3N]

Not sure why people keep moaning about it being north of 20k.

I bet no one pays that with the deals they will offer.

 

[Rob]

But it's true for me, what I enjoy about driving will be gone. I understand how you could still enjoy it on a track, seeing just how fast you could make it through an apex or round a sweeping bend, testing the limits of grip, but most of these things can't really be done on the road.

The sort of thing I loved on the road is second/third gear around a roundabout, one wheel spinning and struggling for grip, just pulling it straight and changing before the limiter on the exit... I just can't see that scenario panning out as enjoyable in a paddle box.

I'll wait until it's out and get a test drive...

 

[MarkCup]

I think the days of 'bespoke' for what is meant/needs to be a mainstream car have long gone Chris.

As for the 'box...Renaultsport missed the boat with the current gen...a wheezy 2.0 NA when almost all others in its class are running forced induction.

I think they're simply trying to predict where the market is going this time around and get ahead of all their rivals.

 

[The Boosh!]

The early models eventually lead to class leading ones though, no? It's all about learning and reflection, which Renaultsport seem to be great at. The Renaultsport range won whatcar? awards 3 years in a row - That says something.

Even you've fallen into the trap 'topher, "it was all about the drive". Who's not to say the new one isn't going to be all about the drive!? Renaultsport have been involved in the chassis development of Clio 4 from the ground up. They didn't just pass them a 5 door and ask them to make it handle.

I take some of your points though - I suppose we just need to wait and see what it's like. I really hope the mis-conceptions in this thread are proved wrong, but i'll quite happily eat myself some humble pie if not!

Also RE the pricing of the Belgium model - a Polo GTI with 178HP is ~£19.5k (with no options!), The (current) fastest Petrol Fiesta 1.0 ecoboost 125BHP is £17,000, The comparable Pug 208 with 200BHP is going to be ~ £19k.

I think people need to recalibrate what they believe a new car costs. We're not in 2004 anymore where a Clio 182 could be had for £14k.

Early 197? Early 225?

Not bad, but hardly class-leading.

My issue with the EDC is how broad they've made it. Renaultsport traditionally makes cars for people with a very particular mindset when choosing a car. They make focussed products and are all the better for it. They never seemed to be sales/gimmick-driven; it was all about the drive.

The EDC has lost some of this already by trying to appeal to as many people as possible, IMO. It looks like the brand managers have won.

I have no doubt that it'll be a superb car to drive and the chassis will be amazing, but the fact it shares the same structure as the £11k car and has no manual option will rule it out for me. It just doest seem bespoke enough for me. That's just my opinion; I'm sure they won't care and will sell loads more than they did Mk2 and Mk3 RS models. Personally, I like to think that's not the point and certainly hasn't been in the past.

 

[Christopher]

Oh totally mate! It's just a shame that it's lost of few features than really sold the 200 for me. Personally, I'd like to see a Cup variant later on with Brembos and a manual 'box.

And to be fair, I did say it was going to be a cracking drive. Renaultsport are built on that.

I'm really looking forward to driving one though! The interior looks gorgeous.

 

[GiT]

Colt Ralliart 147bhp - £11800. Bargain compared to these numbers!

 

[The Boosh!]

Well i'm hoping they will listen to any feedback they get from the press and change a few things. Recaro's will be coming next year, so who knows what else they will add/change. They might even offer a manual option - Who knows!

Oh totally mate! It's just a shame that it's lost of few features than really sold the 200 for me. Personally, I'd like to see a Cup variant later on with Brembos and a manual 'box.

And to be fair, I did say it was going to be a cracking drive. Renaultsport are built on that.

I'm really looking forward to driving one though! The interior looks gorgeous.