182cup & 172 racecar
Nice, well done Chip.
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SharkyUK
ClioSport Club Member
Great result, mate. A lot of fun to be had in that I reckon 
Epic stuff Chip ! I can just tell you will take me out in it and i'm going to have to take back that I don't like turbo'd clios lol
Great work as ever
! I can just tell you will take me out in it and i'm going to have to take back that I don't like turbo'd clios lolGreat work as ever
Call Adam on 01902439264 he is great and very cheap! Normally engaged but worth calling back
Yeah Adam is spot on
Glad to see a few of you approve, I thought the lack of a headline figure like over 300bhp might make it uninteresting on here tbh.
Fitted some gaz coilovers the other day and very impressed with them tbh given they are only gha's, not sure if they will perform as well on track but they drive nice on the road so far although need to tweak the tracking and camber etc still.
Josh cook kindly offered to lend me some gear which he dropped off at danlp6's workshop today so I'm going to head over there tomorrow to do it before I head off to London for work this week, so its my last chance to get it right before Bedford now.
Talked dan into lending me his ramp for the mk1 as well so we're going to see if we have time to swap the box in that for a qualife diff'd one as well.
Glad to see a few of you approve, I thought the lack of a headline figure like over 300bhp might make it uninteresting on here tbh.
Fitted some gaz coilovers the other day and very impressed with them tbh given they are only gha's, not sure if they will perform as well on track but they drive nice on the road so far although need to tweak the tracking and camber etc still.
Josh cook kindly offered to lend me some gear which he dropped off at danlp6's workshop today so I'm going to head over there tomorrow to do it before I head off to London for work this week, so its my last chance to get it right before Bedford now.
Talked dan into lending me his ramp for the mk1 as well so we're going to see if we have time to swap the box in that for a qualife diff'd one as well.
Yeah you can see it just hits a breathing limit at 280bhp or so, then at high rpm as the ve drops the new lower compression means there just isn't enough cylinder pressure so it actually dies off slightly sooner than before, it pulled harder at 7k on the old engine but tbh once past 6500 you are well into the power band if you change up anyway so the only reason you would rev further is just to exit a bend without needing a gear change and in that situation even only 220bhp is still enough to be useful.
A bigger turbo and intercooler would see the torque carry on nearer to the limiter and another 50bhp pretty easily, and another 100 with a better exhaust manifold too, but its just not power I have a use for on trackdays really and I've no interest in ever drag racing a fwd car.
When in the corners, the relevant graph is this one tbh, which is just like a very good n/a Clio engine:
It makes 160lbft by 3krpm and still has it at 7k, I can't build an n/a engine with quite that torque spread using an f4r even if I try in fact!
Then as soon as you are on the straights you keep changing up at 6500rpm and it means 280bhp for the whole straight.
A bigger turbo and intercooler would see the torque carry on nearer to the limiter and another 50bhp pretty easily, and another 100 with a better exhaust manifold too, but its just not power I have a use for on trackdays really and I've no interest in ever drag racing a fwd car.
When in the corners, the relevant graph is this one tbh, which is just like a very good n/a Clio engine:
It makes 160lbft by 3krpm and still has it at 7k, I can't build an n/a engine with quite that torque spread using an f4r even if I try in fact!
Then as soon as you are on the straights you keep changing up at 6500rpm and it means 280bhp for the whole straight.
Its really good fun, but its not the handful that the top graph would make it look, its so easy to select less power if you want it, where as most turbo cars if you go for half throttle you still get 90% of the torque, but having the throttle angle linked to the boost control, makes it far nicer to drive
That's how I had my old car setup, the only problem I had with it was the throttle on the car was a bit too twitchy. However back it off a tad if the power is too much and away you go again. Power when you want it
R5 gtt, R27 F1 team
CR is now 9:1?
Peak boost is 24psi mate but only briefly, held boost is 14 tailing off to 12 by 7k.
Compression is around 9.5, was a touch over 10 before and that's cost me ITRO 20bhp over 7k. But the lower cr allows more timing on peak boost and hence lower egt's so its better for reliability.
Compression is around 9.5, was a touch over 10 before and that's cost me ITRO 20bhp over 7k. But the lower cr allows more timing on peak boost and hence lower egt's so its better for reliability.
That's how I had my old car setup, the only problem I had with it was the throttle on the car was a bit too twitchy. However back it off a tad if the power is too much and away you go again. Power when you want it
This isn't twitchy at all, you have to open the throttle a lot to go from half boost to full boost, like literally at 50 percent throttle it makes the half boost numbers so you have to open the throttle a good few cm further to hit the full power figures.
Obviously the fact you are relying on a change in compressor wheel speed means that response isn't instant like it would be on a 280bhp throttle bodied car but the delay is acceptable and if this was a 280bhp itb f4r I would now need to rebuild it as its done 1k miles! I can't afford that so a tiny bit of delay in response is an acceptable compromise.
Got another graph off the mrs phone, this one shows full throttle and 3/4 throttle overlaid.
At 3/4 throttle it drives very similarly now to what it did on the original MWM 250lbft/258bhp conversion that me and Mike mapped originally when the car was first built.
I have actually considered that I might do a wet and dry version of the map, and have the wet trackday version as being the same as this 3/4 throttle run even at full throttle, but will see how I get on as TBH I think that the throttle control gives me enough resolution to just decide as Im driving to have less boost anyway, so it shouldnt be needed, but if I did do that then it would double the resolution as well (as the change from 50% throttle settings currently to 75% throttle settings would now be 50% of the throttle sweep not the current 25%)
At 3/4 throttle it drives very similarly now to what it did on the original MWM 250lbft/258bhp conversion that me and Mike mapped originally when the car was first built.
I have actually considered that I might do a wet and dry version of the map, and have the wet trackday version as being the same as this 3/4 throttle run even at full throttle, but will see how I get on as TBH I think that the throttle control gives me enough resolution to just decide as Im driving to have less boost anyway, so it shouldnt be needed, but if I did do that then it would double the resolution as well (as the change from 50% throttle settings currently to 75% throttle settings would now be 50% of the throttle sweep not the current 25%)
KTM 990 SD / S60 D5
Nice work, that torque curve at full throttle reminds of my KTM 660 lol.
Ha ha, the torque scale doesnt start at zero by the way, so to drive it actually doesnt feel like it tails off anything like as much as the shape of that graph makes it looks like it does, even at 7500rpm it still has 180lbft.
Should have scaled one from zero really I guess, but when you are mapping you want to only see the range you are working in.
I think more and more people know now a days that its not all about pub figures.. Same with my build, should be good for around 360-380bhp but it's going to be completely unusable in a car that weighs 950kgs.. So it will be much less then that..
I think 280bhp is good power for a track car.. Anymore then that and your just going to get too much spin out the corners.. But you have the power to be very quick on the straights aswell
Good figures though. It's not shy.. Nice work..
Thanks very much mate, its this graph im most pleased with as this is what I will be using to exit corners:
Entirely in the 160-180lbft range for the bit I will be using to exit a bend, then once straightened up I can wind some more throttle on and have a bit of pace for passing people with etc.
Good question mate, you've clearly been thinking about it
I mapped full throttle to check on the rollers with everything that the turbo can do, so that I know wherever it goes it will be safe.
Now that I have it mapped for all possible boost pressure at all rpms, it means I can then make the decision what boost I want and just very quickly update the boost request table accordingly. (literally takes me maybe 30 seconds to totally change the delivery characteristics whenever I want)
Reality is that on track the RPM isnt likely to get low enough for me to ever hit the peak boost as to have it build that much by that rpm you would have to pull in a high gear from about 3500rpm in the first place to give the turbo time to spool (in lower gears if you floor it at lower rpm it accelerates too quickly for the turbo to spool by the rpm it makes that peak torque), and I simply wont do that.
So for now im going to leave it in just in case I want it for any reason, bearing in mind that I only get it if I go full throttle at low rpm so the box isnt likely to see it often.
If it was a customer car I was trying to keep the gearbox in one piece for though I'd tone it down a little, but with only me and the mrs driving it and only really on track at fairly high rpm, I just dont think it will be a big issue.
Well for those people specifically interested in what the car goes like on track who are subscribed to the thread, here is a copy of my post with some videos of it from bedford this weekend, best one to really show the pace I think is the one against the M3!
Original of that thread is here:
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...ing-Mikes-ITB-car-and-a-huge-100mph-sideways)
I took Mike from MWM's dad out for a few laps in my clio turbo at Bedford today.
I was just cooling my brakes down to come back in though and happened upon Mike so decided to switch the cameras back on and follow him for a while to get a bit of footage of him in his ITBs and 438 cams clio as he was going quite well, then after I cruised past him on the straight at part throttle (me, he was flat out I think, lol) I spotted a big group of cars up ahead and decided that as my brakes were cooled down nicely now I may as well give his old man one last flying lap before we came back in (had been out for about half an hour straight at this point!) especially as there seemed to be a few cars up ahead which always makes it more fun.
I chased down the group of cars, got past most of them and then set after an M3 and an Escort Cosworth who were both going pretty well.
Then as I was passing the Escort Cosworth on the main straight I couldnt quite get clear of him as although I was quicker at lower speeds (due to power to weight I would imagine) once we were well over a ton, we were really evenly matched and I just couldnt pull away from him.
I didnt want to stamp on the brakes with him right on my bumper so I decided that I would really leave it late to brake for the chicane thinking that I'd then pull away from him as he got on the brakes and I didnt and it would give him some space, however he brakes really late as well so when I did get on the brakes I just didnt get rid of enough speed breaking that late (first time I'd really pushed my car down the straight so was perhaps carrying a bit more speed than I expected, not been doing about a buck and a half in a clio there before, lol) and I ended up getting a MASSIVE sideways slide on as I went through the chicane still well into the 3 figures, and I was pretty lucky to manage to catch it TBH.
The interesting snippets of rearward footage:
Clio 200 overtake
[video=youtube_share;t5vLy9cof-8]http://youtu.be/t5vLy9cof-8[/video]
Clio overtake
[video=youtube_share;K6a-l7pVw8g]http://youtu.be/K6a-l7pVw8g[/video]
Clio overtake
[video=youtube_share;k0gouf6WBME]http://youtu.be/k0gouf6WBME[/video]
Focus RS overtake
[video=youtube_share;hBT1ji0jWh8]http://youtu.be/hBT1ji0jWh8[/video]
M3 overtake
[video=youtube_share;73DwNDSnoEE]http://youtu.be/73DwNDSnoEE[/video]
Overtake car that then spins trying to keep up
[video=youtube_share;lUkVpuaT8Ac]http://youtu.be/lUkVpuaT8Ac[/video]
Overtake escos then sideways
[video=youtube_share;fZp7bCyw94w]http://youtu.be/fZp7bCyw94w[/video]
Original of that thread is here:
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...ing-Mikes-ITB-car-and-a-huge-100mph-sideways)
I took Mike from MWM's dad out for a few laps in my clio turbo at Bedford today.
I was just cooling my brakes down to come back in though and happened upon Mike so decided to switch the cameras back on and follow him for a while to get a bit of footage of him in his ITBs and 438 cams clio as he was going quite well, then after I cruised past him on the straight at part throttle (me, he was flat out I think, lol) I spotted a big group of cars up ahead and decided that as my brakes were cooled down nicely now I may as well give his old man one last flying lap before we came back in (had been out for about half an hour straight at this point!) especially as there seemed to be a few cars up ahead which always makes it more fun.
I chased down the group of cars, got past most of them and then set after an M3 and an Escort Cosworth who were both going pretty well.
Then as I was passing the Escort Cosworth on the main straight I couldnt quite get clear of him as although I was quicker at lower speeds (due to power to weight I would imagine) once we were well over a ton, we were really evenly matched and I just couldnt pull away from him.
I didnt want to stamp on the brakes with him right on my bumper so I decided that I would really leave it late to brake for the chicane thinking that I'd then pull away from him as he got on the brakes and I didnt and it would give him some space, however he brakes really late as well so when I did get on the brakes I just didnt get rid of enough speed breaking that late (first time I'd really pushed my car down the straight so was perhaps carrying a bit more speed than I expected, not been doing about a buck and a half in a clio there before, lol) and I ended up getting a MASSIVE sideways slide on as I went through the chicane still well into the 3 figures, and I was pretty lucky to manage to catch it TBH.
The interesting snippets of rearward footage:
Clio 200 overtake
[video=youtube_share;t5vLy9cof-8]http://youtu.be/t5vLy9cof-8[/video]
Clio overtake
[video=youtube_share;K6a-l7pVw8g]http://youtu.be/K6a-l7pVw8g[/video]
Clio overtake
[video=youtube_share;k0gouf6WBME]http://youtu.be/k0gouf6WBME[/video]
Focus RS overtake
[video=youtube_share;hBT1ji0jWh8]http://youtu.be/hBT1ji0jWh8[/video]
M3 overtake
[video=youtube_share;73DwNDSnoEE]http://youtu.be/73DwNDSnoEE[/video]
Overtake car that then spins trying to keep up
[video=youtube_share;lUkVpuaT8Ac]http://youtu.be/lUkVpuaT8Ac[/video]
Overtake escos then sideways
[video=youtube_share;fZp7bCyw94w]http://youtu.be/fZp7bCyw94w[/video]
Last edited by a moderator:
LOL
Ive driven a normal 197 cup road car there myself and NO WAY wouold I go through there flat out!
Shows the difference between the road cars and the race ones.
He's probably have killed you both in my turbo, lol
Yeah the stickers are from this forum:
www.obsessiveperformancedisorder.com
or clubopd.com is the easier to remember one.
Its only a small forum, but its for anyone who likes trackdays, building engines, mapping and any of that stuff, it started life as a vaux forum years ago but is anything now.
www.obsessiveperformancedisorder.com
or clubopd.com is the easier to remember one.
Its only a small forum, but its for anyone who likes trackdays, building engines, mapping and any of that stuff, it started life as a vaux forum years ago but is anything now.
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