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Are 438 cams really worth it?



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  Clio 182 FF inferno
Been looking a price of cams, mainly 438s as they seem to make the best power so just have a couple of questions for people with cams? are they really worth it? £1200ish for 197bhp maximum? Is there really any noticeable difference? Would you have done it still if you knew what you knew now?

thanks
 
  Clio 182 FF inferno
The short answer is no!

Get 421's and live with a slightly rough idle.

I was told you need aftermarket management to run 421's what power to 421s see on average? Are they safe to run on standard ECU? And how rough of an idle are they? They just go up and down a bit or is it really rough making you stall ect.

Thanks
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
You will be spending the entire value of your car potentially just to gain 10% more power, only you can decide if that is worth it at the end of the day.

And worse still you wont ever see the money again.

Personally I would go for an RS2 inlet instead for not to dissimilar money and at least its sellable after, the problem with cams is that the secondhand value of a set when you decide you dont want them anymore or are selling the car is not significantly more than you will have to pay to have them removed, so basically the entire cost of them is just gone.
1200 quid to have them fitted and mapped, if you want to sell them you will get 400 quid tops back for them, and it will cost you that 400 to swap back to standard ones again.

With an RS2 though it will cost you only a couple of hundred more to buy and have mapped, its DIY fitment, and they fetch about a grand secondhand.
 
The cam price is only 600ish though, when you factor in a belt change, so if it happens to fall at 72k ish/5 years it's not a bad investment.

Although I agree with Chip that it's dead money once fitted.
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
The cam price is only 600ish though, when you factor in a belt change, so if it happens to fall at 72k ish/5 years it's not a bad investment.

You are doing well TBH mate if you can buy the cams and have them mapped properly for 600 quid, even if you write off the cost of fitting them against having a belt change done anyway.

Although I agree with Chip that it's dead money once fitted.

The only exception to that really is if you can fit and map them yourself.

Although TBH I personally could, and I still havent bothered, but I do have an RS2, which obviously shows what I think of how each one drives etc.
 
Sorry, my maths was well out there, had to go and double check.

£1349 fitted and "mapped" (generic?) by Dan@519.

Less £450 for the usual belts so circa £900 for the cam's including fitting and mapping.

Price of cams? + extra 1 hours labour (at a guess) + couple of hundred quid for the map and upload.
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Sorry, my maths was well out there, had to go and double check.

£1349 fitted and "mapped" (generic?) by Dan@519.

Less £450 for the usual belts so circa £900 for the cam's including fitting and mapping.

Price of cams? + extra 1 hours labour (at a guess) + couple of hundred quid for the map and upload.


As far as I am aware Dan@519 uses Ktec for actually writing the maps he uploads still, unless that has changed recently, so assuming that is still the case then personally I would avoid that route like the plague having seen the state of some of their 438 maps.

But those prices are similar to what you would pay for Mike@MWM to do the job properly anyway so I agree on the numbers, 600 ish for the cams, few hundred for the fitting, few hundred for the mapping, and if you were getting your belts changed anyway you could write off the fitting cost so yes its then about 900 just for the cams and mapping, and then like mentioned you wont see anything back later on realistically unless you happen to remove them at the same time as your belt is next due.
 
  clio 182 sport
It was money well spent in my opinion, but i wanted my belts changed anyways so would have been mad not to get them fitted at the same time and i personally ( along with other people on here ) was well happy with the results. made a big difference to the way the car drives :)

And to people who say about dead money, i think thats a stupid comment on a car forum :/
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
And to people who say about dead money, i think thats a stupid comment on a car forum :/

Well its certainly true that modified cars in general are a bad investment, but it is possible to still take future values into account, as most people arent going to be keeping their car for life so more money back later on means more money to spend on the next project/toy.
 
I had a set of these cams - just sold for £450.

They were good and I can recommend them. The values (and opinions) stated in this thread comparing for fitting against other performance upgrades are all valid.

It's a call I made at the time, down to money in the end. I got 197 indicated peak with 160 odd lb\ft for around £1300 at the time (18 mths ago)...my belts needed doing and the result (in figures and out on track) was in my view worth the money. I don't think many would dispute their performance on track.

I would not have bought these had my belts not needed doing though.


Take off the belt cost and the resale value means I've spent\lost £500.

More if you pin the demise of my engine solely to be the fault of these cams - but in all honesty, 110K 10 year old engine abused every time out for the past two years how long would it have lasted any way - anyones guess.

End of the day you'll, hopefully, make an informed choice, all the information is out there\on CS. I would buy cams again for sure.
 
  Lionel Richie
cams don't cause an engine to fail, i've been hearing that a lot lately, its normally mapping or age/abuse/wrong oil/bad luck
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
cams don't cause an engine to fail, i've been hearing that a lot lately, its normally mapping or age/abuse/wrong oil/bad luck

Seems to be a straw some people are clutching at to avoid blaming the real issues like bad mapping.

They can slightly increase stem seal leaks but not to the extent Danny keeps banging on about on here IME.
He told toastfrenzy it was stem seals caused by the cams but I told him it wasnt and would be the pistons and sure enough when it came apart it was indeed the bottom end.
 
  Cup In bits
Seems to be a straw some people are clutching at to avoid blaming the real issues like bad mapping.

They can slightly increase stem seal leaks but not to the extent Danny keeps banging on about on here IME.
He told toastfrenzy it was stem seals caused by the cams but I told him it wasnt and would be the pistons and sure enough when it came apart it was indeed the bottom end.

Do you think its det, running lean or one thing in particular that's causing the ringland failure? Add another star to your badge if you answer.

ps Adam thanks for the invoices its that annoying Scots lad that kept bothering you.
 
  DON'T SEND ME PM'S!!
Seems to be a straw some people are clutching at to avoid blaming the real issues like bad mapping.

They can slightly increase stem seal leaks but not to the extent Danny keeps banging on about on here IME.
He told toastfrenzy it was stem seals caused by the cams but I told him it wasnt and would be the pistons and sure enough when it came apart it was indeed the bottom end.


bullshit, you don't know what I speak to customers about, you've just assumed absolutely all of that drivel. bore off. You're intent on bad mouthing me about absolutely everything at the moment and you've no founding for any of it. Keep your opinions to yourself, I will never have any involvement with you so you've nothing to comment on.
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Do you think its det, running lean or one thing in particular that's causing the ringland failure? Add another star to your badge if you answer.

ps Adam thanks for the invoices its that annoying Scots lad that kept bothering you.

Combination of running lean and det.

They aren't lean when they map them, but they don't understand enough about the Ecu to work out how come they all go lean after. ;)
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
bulls**t, you don't know what I speak to customers about, you've just assumed absolutely all of that drivel.

Nope, Ive not assumed any of it at all, he actually contacted me directly when you first said to him that it was just the stem seals allowing oil to leak down the guides that were making him lose enormous amounts of oil including pushing it out of the breather.
And he asked me if that was likely, and I said I felt you didnt have a clue what you were talking about and that it was far more likely that the pistons had been killed by the map on it, and that I would expect when you pulled it apart for the ringlands to have collapsed on one or more pistons or for one of more pistons to have lost an edge.

Dont take my word for it though, ask him!

I am a VERY straightforward guy, its very simply: if its true I will say it, if its not I wont.
If you could just learn that you wouldnt keep getting yourself into situations where you look as silly as you do now where you have said Ive made something up when of course I havent, that just isnt something I would ever do, so please dont judge me by your own standards.


I of course WONT expect an apology when you find out what I am saying about him doing so is 100% correct, Ive noticed in the past you arent really upto that, not just to me though so I dont take it personally ;)



bore off. You're intent on bad mouthing me about absolutely everything at the moment and you've no founding for any of it. Keep your opinions to yourself, I will never have any involvement with you so you've nothing to comment on.

The ironic thing is Danny, from what Ive heard you spend nearly every clio meet you go to slagging me off to anyone who will listen, not that it even slightly bothers me what the likes of you thinks of me in the first place TBH, but at least practice what you preach, lol.

Bottom line is that Ive not got any feelings about you particularly one way or the other TBH, I must confess that considering you "do this stuff for a living" Ive obviously been surprised a few times at how little you seem to know about engines, most obvious example being you werent aware that raising the compression of an engine can yield more power even from the same fuel and air flow for example, and told me I was being boring when I explained to you why it does, but in terms of any personal feelings about you, Ive never even met you and have none at all, you might be a perfectly decent chap in real life, its easy to misjudge people from written word so I dont even bother trying.
 
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Tom

ClioSport Club Member
  EV (s)
Chip.

This particular thread is a fantastic example of when less is more.

​Understand?
 
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  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
Chip.

This particular thread is a fantastic example of when less is more.

​Understand?

If someone accuses me of lieing when I havent done any such thing, I am afraid you will just have to expect a verbose reply Tom, my honesty and integrity is something Im quite passionate about.

But understood and point noted :)
 
  Evo 8 MR
251256_anchorman_well_that_escalated_quickly_966.jpg
 

DTM

  Clio 188 ph1 438's
okay, so sorry to butt in guys but I'm soon to be getting my 438's mapped at RS tuning, am I going to end up with a lean running engine??
 

mharvey

ClioSport Club Member
okay, so sorry to butt in guys but I'm soon to be getting my 438's mapped at RS tuning, am I going to end up with a lean running engine??

Not heard a bad thing about Paul and his mapping abilities, think he's one of the few places you're safe lately.
 
  182/RS2/ Turbo/Mk1
okay, so sorry to butt in guys but I'm soon to be getting my 438's mapped at RS tuning, am I going to end up with a lean running engine??

Paul is very good, not just at mapping but in terms of his knowledge of the quirks of the F4R management in the first place, you are in safe hands there IME.
 
Chip - I asked you the same as I asked James, Oli, Mike, Dan @ 519 and a few others their opinon and thoughts on my experiance.

You were the only one who was abusive toward Dan in your PM's.

I've learnt a lot in life - how to listen to people and use the parts of the information given that I feel worth while, not everything every one says is gospel - I've also learnt when to hold my tongue.

I've reported your posts as I feel they are detrimental to the way this forum operates and quite frankly I find them at times a bit OTT to say the least. No need. That's my view and only my view, no one elses.

Please now don't turn this thread into another Chip wins thread - I sort of guessed posting what I did would end this way, it was a real shame that I was proved correct in my thoughts.
 

DTM

  Clio 188 ph1 438's
Cheers fella's, I've only heard good things about Paul but just wanted to check given the last few posts, and just for information I would have gone RS2 would it have been available when I made my purchase of the 438's, really like the flat torque curve.
 

Tom

ClioSport Club Member
  EV (s)
Sorry guys.

I'm really not in the mood to referee, so that's the end of that.
 
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