Rusty Cup
Serious eye opener, cant help but be impressed with what Honda's are capable of!!
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500bhp N/A 4 cylinder...
- Thread starter MonkeyKnifeFight
- Start date
They CNC it from scratch? I bet costs a few quid, 10,000rpm though...mental!
I've never been that bothered about Honda's, I think the various Type R's are cool but not enough to seriously want one, then the other week I had a play with a modified DC5, I kept with him for about 3 seconds then his engine made a loud screaming noise and he f*cked off into the future like I was in a pedal car, quick chat with him at the lights and he said it was far from standard, thing was insanely fast.
Then I saw this vid of a blokes car where he's basically just bolted a turbo to a 1.5, I kind of want one now.
I've never been that bothered about Honda's, I think the various Type R's are cool but not enough to seriously want one, then the other week I had a play with a modified DC5, I kept with him for about 3 seconds then his engine made a loud screaming noise and he f*cked off into the future like I was in a pedal car, quick chat with him at the lights and he said it was far from standard, thing was insanely fast.
Then I saw this vid of a blokes car where he's basically just bolted a turbo to a 1.5, I kind of want one now.
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PH2 172
I don't know any priests.
massiveCoRbyn
ClioSport Club Member
Several
That seems a mental number. The likes of Millington over here aren't getting 400bhp from their biggest four pots I don't think.
Bet that isn't a cheap engine anyway.
Bet that isn't a cheap engine anyway.
BoatNonce
ClioSport Club Member
297lbft. Less than a 330d.
Probably would get walked by the average 400bhp boosted car.
It's a cool build though! Would be great if you were only allowed to be naturally aspirated.
massiveCoRbyn
ClioSport Club Member
Several
Being as it's a drag racing engine, I suspect it's in a class for normally aspirated motors.
BoatNonce
ClioSport Club Member
Yeah, I assumed nobody would spend all that money just for fun, lol
Have a look at my car thread. ?
Yep, love that, buy car, bolt turbo on it, done!
good job drag racing isn't up any sort of hill then with that little torque!!
HA, thats what it was to begin with. 15k later is where it is now ?
Except, this revs to more than double what a 330D does. And b****cks to a 330D tbh.
300ft/lbs is not an inconsequential amount, not when the engine is on song at 9k+, delivering 500HP!
The K series really is a remarkable engine, not that this one has much more than a rocker cover in common with one. Lols.
My favourite statistic for a K20 is that around the time of launch, the piston speed was more than that of the period V10 F1 cars.
BoatNonce
ClioSport Club Member
I think you're missing the point. It's an engineering achievement, but outside of its series it's pretty useless. 300lbft is very inconsequential when most other engines running that kind of power level are making 450-500lbft throughout the rev range.
And that rev range is ~60% of what this is capable of! I’m not going to compare a boredom riddled repmobile, with a race engine anymore. [emoji23]
BoatNonce
ClioSport Club Member
You do realise I'm not talking about a 330d, don't you? Area under the graph is what makes an engine fast. Simply revving to the moon is not enough to make an engine perform like one which has far more torque.
P.S. At 11000rpm, assuming it is even still making 500bhp at that point, it will be pushing a whole 230lbft.
Once on the move the torque figure is nowhere near as important as you are making out.
BoatNonce
ClioSport Club Member
Oh rly.
Here is a graph against a Cosworth YB. Peruse it at your leisure. (When the YB line is above the Honda one, it's accelerating faster. The Honda can hold the same gear for longer, but it doesn't matter because the YB simply shifts gear and f***s it a second time.)
The honda dyno is essentially guesswork but we know it can't make over 297lbft and 500bhp so it's best case scenario given those figures.
BoatNonce
ClioSport Club Member
It’s Torque Vs RPM. Torque directly influences acceleration (f=ma).
The YB has 500bhp, the Honda has 500bhp.
The YB makes 500lbft, the honda makes 300lbft.
As you can see, honda gets fooked by the YB, easily. And the same with most other boosted engines. If you don’t understand the data being plotted you shouldn’t really be saying it’s wrong.
The YB has 500bhp, the Honda has 500bhp.
The YB makes 500lbft, the honda makes 300lbft.
As you can see, honda gets fooked by the YB, easily. And the same with most other boosted engines. If you don’t understand the data being plotted you shouldn’t really be saying it’s wrong.
Gonna swerve that graph.
My Evo has about 300ft/lbs, and about 350bhp. Put this K in anything and I’d simply watch it walk away!
BoatNonce
ClioSport Club Member
Are you actually reading anything or just being simple? Who on earth is talking about comparing this 500bhp engine to a 350bhp one?
Well f**king obviously? What on earth point are you making lol? The car with more torque and same power is faster? No s**t...
You’re the one that first compared a 500bhp K20 with a 330D. Then drew yourself a pretty graph.
Simple.
BoatNonce
ClioSport Club Member
The same point I've made since day 1.
It's cool in its own little bubble of 'this is a lot of power for a nasp 2.7 litre 4 banger', but in terms of 'this is a 500bhp engine' it's pretty slow. Most other 500bhp engines are turbo/supercharged and will happily make 4-500lbft and will eat this thing alive. It's probably more equivalent to RS3 performance (aside from car weight) than it is something with a 500bhp 1JZ, 2.2 4G63 or YB or EA888 etc etc etc etc etc etc.
So yeah, you weren't reading then.
robmuns
ClioSport Club Member
Ph1 172
From what I can understand of all this I think it's alot more complicated than just “more torque is better".. It's pretty well known that in racing the more power you have the better as this provides more acceleration and top speed.. And as you're trying to compare two engines with the same power output there won't be any difference surely? The honda engine obviously holds its torque into much higher rpm so if both cars are being geared for the same road speed in each gear at the redlines this means the gearing would be much more favourable for the honda engine.. meaning the actual power to the road is effectively the same as an engine that has loads more torque but the same power output (gearing is a torque multiplier) .. You can't really compare the two engines using the same gear ratios because the engine redlines are different.
Yes the engine with much more torque would make a better road car as you don't need to rev the nuts off it but in terms of out and out speed if they have the same power output then there won't be anything in it
Yes the engine with much more torque would make a better road car as you don't need to rev the nuts off it but in terms of out and out speed if they have the same power output then there won't be anything in it
BoatNonce
ClioSport Club Member
It's not as simple as 'they both have 500bhp therefore they will both be just as fast'. Peak figures are mostly meaningless but they do give us some information. The most important 'number' you can get from any dyno graph is to measure the area of the space under the torque curve - An engine with more area under the graph will always outperform one which has less.
You are correct in that the Honda will be able to carry more speed in a lower gear (and therefore benefit from higher torque multiplication), but as you can see in the graph above, selecting a higher gear means that the torque curve essentially moves to the right (RPM x difference in gear ratio) and down (torque/difference in gear ratio). We can plot that on the graph as a second line for that car, which give us coverage of all the speed ranges available to the higher revving N/A car.
As you can see from the graph above, the advantage a boosted engine has over the naturally aspirated one is enough that it still outaccelerates the N/A one, even in a higher gear.
massiveCoRbyn
ClioSport Club Member
Several
You can say "so-and-so is better/faster", but I suspect this engine has been built to compete in a particular class of racing, so comparing it to a turbocharged unit is probably pretty pointless, as it would likely never compete against one. Based on my limited knowledge of drag racing in the US, I seem to remember that there are different classes for normally aspirated and forced induction engines.
Attaching a rocket to it might make it go faster, but it's pretty irrelevant if it doesn't fit into the rules, so the context is critical.
And, if it's just been built for fun, or to see what is possible, then it doesn't really matter anyway because, again, the comparison to forced induction becomes irrelevant.
Regardless, arguing over a graph is pointless ?
Attaching a rocket to it might make it go faster, but it's pretty irrelevant if it doesn't fit into the rules, so the context is critical.
And, if it's just been built for fun, or to see what is possible, then it doesn't really matter anyway because, again, the comparison to forced induction becomes irrelevant.
Regardless, arguing over a graph is pointless ?
BoatNonce
ClioSport Club Member
I did say that at the beginning. I have no doubt it’s a fantastic bit of engineering, 185bhp/litre for a N/A engine is great going.
It’s just not as quick as most people are thinking when they hear 500bhp.
BoatNonce
ClioSport Club Member
Feel free to explain how?
406 V6, Race Buggy
It's pretty easy, one is making 400bhp, one is making 500bhp, so for a given road speed, the 500bhp one must be making more torque at the wheels.
If they're both 500bhp peak then the graphs must converge/cross at some point.
So what your graph is showing, I don't know. But it's not torque x rpms and it's not wheel torque against road speed.
Of course, it's also going to be lighter and need a less beefy gearbox, clutch, etc, than a YB is for the same power.
And probably competes in an N/A race class, making it a moot point anyway.
If they're both 500bhp peak then the graphs must converge/cross at some point.
So what your graph is showing, I don't know. But it's not torque x rpms and it's not wheel torque against road speed.
Of course, it's also going to be lighter and need a less beefy gearbox, clutch, etc, than a YB is for the same power.
And probably competes in an N/A race class, making it a moot point anyway.
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BoatNonce
ClioSport Club Member
Read the legend. Red and yellow are the same YB, the Blue is the honda.
The ‘400bhp’ (it’s Lbft, not bhp) is the same engine in the next higher gear, superimposed onto the same graph (see above for how to do it) as the YB must make an upshift to reach the same roadspeed that the Honda achieves at 11000rpm. Both engines make 500bhp.
It can be a bit confusing if you’ve not worked with these graphs before.
The ‘400bhp’ (it’s Lbft, not bhp) is the same engine in the next higher gear, superimposed onto the same graph (see above for how to do it) as the YB must make an upshift to reach the same roadspeed that the Honda achieves at 11000rpm. Both engines make 500bhp.
It can be a bit confusing if you’ve not worked with these graphs before.
JamesBryan
ClioSport Club Member
Bhp is how fast you go, torque is how fast you get there iirc.
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