What cams for 172 ph2 ?

[LegoHead]

Looking to get into 200bhp territory, looked into throttle bodies, but cant justify cost, for a relatively small gain for the price. Plus it would cost big money for me to keep cruise control.

I am after a good set of cams, and wondering if it best to get second hand ones, then get the experts to set them up, or just buy it all new....which is cheaper?

I have smt6 which I would like to use, as I have so far had very good results with this chip,plus its money already spent.

 

[Fred@BTM]

avoid Piper

the best IMO are Schrick, they make cams for certain F1 engines, not a bad claim!

Catcams are half decent from what i've seen, although certain profiles from Cat cannot be used with the OE ecu (or piggyback for that matter)

 

[LegoHead]

avoid Piper

the best IMO are Schrick, they make cams for certain F1 engines, not a bad claim!

Catcams are half decent from what i've seen, although certain profiles from Cat cannot be used with the OE ecu (or piggyback for that matter)

Yep, i remember you saying that piper ones tick too loudly.lol.

Is it safe to buy second hand if I get a decent make?

And i think 200bhp, was a bit optimistic. just had a search and 197 seems to be a standard figure, now that is strange.....

 

[Fred@BTM]

second hand yes, but be UBER careful, don't end up buying piper regrinds when you've been told they're billet schricks for example!!

you will struggle to pick them up 2nd hand IMO

be careful if you're offered Catcams, there are certain profiles that will not work on your setup (check part numbers) same with schrick

 

[LegoHead]

Not in a hurry to do this, just gonna keep my eyes open, and see what comes along.

Have been reading up on how they work. What is the overlap time thingy called, has it got a special name, so i can check specs of certain cams, or is the info not generally available?

What sort of price would it be to get some cams fitted? Then just get a rolling road remap of smt6 ?

I also need the inlets doing, but just waiting for some of Ben's to come up for sale.

 

[BenR]

second hand yes, but be UBER careful, don't end up buying piper regrinds when you've been told they're billet schricks for example!!

you will struggle to pick them up 2nd hand IMO

be careful if you're offered Catcams, they're is a certain profile that will not work on your setup (check part numbers)

Thats a silly comment, there are about 7 profiles from cat which will not work on a stock type engine. And the same for schricks wilder cams.

Just because one person had the wrong cam profile fitted doesnt mean you have to be careful of the cams, you only have to be careful of the people advising.

 

[Jones]

Not in a hurry to do this, just gonna keep my eyes open, and see what comes along.

Have been reading up on how they work. What is the overlap time thingy called, has it got a special name, so i can check specs of certain cams, or is the info not generally available?

What sort of price would it be to get some cams fitted? Then just get a rolling road remap of smt6 ?

I also need the inlets doing, but just waiting for some of Ben's to come up for sale.

duration

 

[Fred@BTM]

Thats a silly comment, there are about 7 profiles from cat which will not work on a stock type engine. And the same for schricks wilder cams.

Just because one person had the wrong cam profile fitted doesnt mean you have to be careful of the cams, you only have to be careful of the people advising.

i was just pointing out!! god!! some people are SO touchy!

 

[LegoHead]

duration

thats the word!

so what is the max duration allowable on this engine, or optimum for power?

 

[matty w]

the pipers only tick if there not fitted properly

 

[Fred@BTM]

the pipers only tick if there not fitted properly

i disagree, and i'm sure Ben will aswell, i haven't heard a car fitted with pipers that doesn't

 

[LegoHead]

how hard is it to fit these myself?

 

[Fred@BTM]

pretty hard, you need to know what you're doing

 

[LegoHead]

pretty hard, you need to know what you're doing

Any guides worth looking at?

 

[Fred@BTM]

Einstein's is not bad

http://www.angel-works.co.uk/articles/f4rbuild.php

 

[LegoHead]

I've been reading through that. But he makes it seem too simple, plus I bet Ben does alot of prep work before hand.

 

[matty w]

i disagree, and i'm sure Ben will aswell, i haven't heard a car fitted with pipers that doesn't

i disagree again i know of a few f4r's running them that dont tick,obviously somthing to do with fitting them

 

[Fred@BTM]

nope, its to do with they way they're reground, i'll let einsteinR explain

 

[matty w]

i'll just agree too disagree with you as i've been told the reason why they tap and its not cause of being regrinds

 

[Fred@BTM]

its to do with removing materical from the BCD of the cam lobe, this causes the rollers to tap

 

[matty w]

its to do with removing materical from the BCD of the cam lobe, this causes the rollers to tap

err no

 

[Fred@BTM]

go on then, enlighten me!

 

[matty w]

there is a way so they dont tap

 

[LegoHead]

Come on, I am interested as much as Fred, I was hoping for a heated discussion, so I could learn more about the mysterys of wild cams.

I would be very interested in why you think fitting them wrong would cause them to tap.

 

[mini-valver]

Cams are simple to fit if you've got the balls to do it. Only ever gone in depth into little vauxhall 8v engines (got a 120bhp 1400 nearly finished for my nova wooooo!) but the principals are all the same, just a case of removing head but if your not confident don't bother as it'll cost you if you f**k it up!
Reprofiles are shite and wear alot quicker so your better off goin for something made from scrath ie shrick or kent. You don't want anything to wild or it'll be undrivable around town etc. get something with a 290 ish lift and you'll see good gains and it'll be drivable,
Cams only work right if the engines set up for them, your chip will help as you can map the ECU to work with the cam powerband.
Hope that helps!

 

[matty w]

Come on, I am interested as much as Fred, I was hoping for a heated discussion, so I could learn more about the mysterys of wild cams.

I would be very interested in why you think fitting them wrong would cause them to tap.

not actually fitting them wrong just somthing you do so they dont tap

 

[LegoHead]

not actually fitting them wrong just somthing you do so they dont tap

Like take away their dancing shoes? Plain english will do, I'm not a numpty.

 

[matty w]

Like take away their dancing shoes? Plain english will do, I'm not a numpty.

never said you was a numpty,i'm not gonna say what anyway i'll let someone work out how to do it,

 

[MarkM]

IMO if you are going to spend the cash getting some installed get some billet ones.

Cat cams and schrick are proven on a number of cars.

If it is for road use dont go mad on the profile or you will be driving round at 6k+rpm searching for the power.

 

[LegoHead]

never said you was a numpty,i'm not gonna say what anyway i'll let someone work out how to do it,

:dapprove: I'm sad now.

 

[LegoHead]

IMO if you are going to spend the cash getting some installed get some billet ones.

Cat cams and schrick are proven on a number of cars.

If it is for road use dont go mad on the profile or you will be driving round at 6k+rpm searching for the power.

Cat cams keep popping up everywhere i have enquired.

Do you lose torque off the line with cams?

Anyone got any before/after RR graphs?

 

[Fred@BTM]

drop me an e-mail Dave, and i'll send you some of our before/after graphs

 

[MarkM]

Cat cams keep popping up everywhere i have enquired.

Do you lose torque off the line with cams?

Anyone got any before/after RR graphs?

Depends on the cams mine gain torque low down but tail off quite early at around 6.5k which suits me for the the road.

 

[BenR]

Cams are simple to fit if you've got the balls to do it. Only ever gone in depth into little vauxhall 8v engines (got a 120bhp 1400 nearly finished for my nova wooooo!) but the principals are all the same, just a case of removing head but if your not confident don't bother as it'll cost you if you f**k it up!
Reprofiles are sh*te and wear alot quicker so your better off goin for something made from scrath ie shrick or kent. You don't want anything to wild or it'll be undrivable around town etc. get something with a 290 ish lift and you'll see good gains and it'll be drivable,
Cams only work right if the engines set up for them, your chip will help as you can map the ECU to work with the cam powerband.
Hope that helps!

No need to remove the head, complexity lies in the cam timing where no location keys are used and a specific process is required to ensure timing which doesnt slip once you move the tools.

Reprofiles are s**t period.

290 deg is insanely too wild for the road, the F4R wont even start running cams such as that........thats if its a true 290 and not a billy b****cks bullshit advertised duration.

 

[BenR]

thats the word!

so what is the max duration allowable on this engine, or optimum for power?

Be careful when reading advertised duration, in their own right they mean absolute zilch.

As i've previously talked about, you can have two cams of 275 deg 'duration' and they will be of such a different nature you wouldnt believe.

Whats important are the 40 and 50 thou timing events, seat timing events, ramp and flank profiles, BCD diameter, nose duration and most of all, area under the curve for a profile trace.

If you were to sit down with me it would take a verbal hour or so to go over the reasoning of cam choice and what to look at.

95% of what you read and hear is misleading and misinformed.

 

[Fred@BTM]

why do pipers tap Benji??

 

[BenR]

Cat cams keep popping up everywhere i have enquired.

Do you lose torque off the line with cams?

Anyone got any before/after RR graphs?

The new AWT cams will be released very soon and have been specifically designed for 99% of road users and harmony with the stock ECU's operating parameters. They loose zero torque at any point and gain massive amounts of torque.

They will be released within the next 6 weeks and i gaurantee nothing will be able to compare on a road car running a OE remapped ECU.

 

[LegoHead]

The new AWT cams will be released very soon and have been specifically designed for 99% of road users and harmony with the stock ECU's operating parameters. They loose zero torque at any point and gain massive amounts of torque.

They will be released within the next 6 weeks and i gaurantee nothing will be able to compare on a road car running a OE remapped ECU.

want a test car?

 

[BenR]

why do pipers tap Benji??

Because they got SOOOUUUULLLL baby!

 

[Fred@BTM]

high 5!