What´s the wildest cam that the standard ECU can handle on a 172?

[Eros]

I´m planning on getting some cams on my 172 ph 2 clio. Here in Argentina I can get some cams that work ok but they were always been instaled in race cars with standalone ECU.
I don´t want to use a standalone ECU on my 172. Those cams run with standars springs and the standard hydraulic lifters but they are supposed to get me 30hp more.

Since you guys are very experienced in this matter... Do you think this will work? or I´m doomed to get a standalone ECU?

 

[portal172]

What about a piggy back ECU?

IMO if you don't atleast re-map the ecu, you are waisting your time and money.

You won't get the full potential.

 

[TheJesus]

You need the same cams that I have in mine.

Cat cams part number: 5502420

INTAKE EXHAUST


clearance [cl] 0.00mm 0.00mm
duration [0.1mm+cl] 268° 256°
duration [1.0mm+cl] 230° 218°
valve lift [cl=0] 11.25mm 10.20mm REQUIRED PARTS
cam lift 5.70mm 5.20mm
peak angle 124° 104° followers: O.E.M.
timing [1.0mm+cl] -9/59° 33/ 5° retainers: O.E.M.
lift at TDC [cl=0] 0.40mm 1.55mm springs: O.E.M.


information & important remarks:

# FIA Gr.N-5616,N-5637,N-5659

# The VVT system on the intake camshaft changes the cam timing (and so the lift at TDC):
- 1st intake valve: 124° (disengaged) // 108° (engaged)
- 2nd intake valve: 128° (disengaged) // 112° (engaged)
- 1st exhaust valve: 108° (no VVT)
- 2nd exhaust valve: 104° (no VVT)
Please make sure there is enough distance between valve and piston when the VVT system is engaged.


These will work with a stock ECU, ideally remapped, but they will work with requiring any other messing around.

 

[drhowser]

the main issue with cams in a 1*2 is that the ecu can't deal with any overlap. i don't think the amount of lift will bother it too much, and if the cams you are looking at still use standard springs they can't have a stupid lift value. the reason most people rud a seperate ecu is that allows a longer duration, which causes some overlap.

 

[ja.jack]

It might be in the tuners interest to sell you an expensive stand alone ecu even though the standard one could manage. They would'nt do that, would they?

 

[TheJesus]

It might be in the tuners interest to sell you an expensive stand alone ecu even though the standard one could manage. They would'nt do that, would they?

Any decent tuner would explain it properly so you are fully aware of what you are buying and not baffle you with technical waffle and bullshit. The basic GDI cam package uses the same cams as mine (not very wild, exhaust cam is same profile as stock) and uses a stock ECU fine. The others not so... you can get them to run, but they dont idle properly and there is other issues. This is just another reason I only take my car to one place.

 

[ja.jack]

That basic cam package offers a big torque hike. Seems like good value, and it's in the sale lol. Why is that ,Jon ? You would think it would be their best seller.

 

[drhowser]

can you just buy the inlet cam, if the exhaust is the stock profile?

 

[TheJesus]

I think that's the normal price, just the website needs updating a bit Jim.

No idea what there best seller is, tbh I'd actually say throttle bodies are, but also need to remember that they dont just tune Clio's, that's just a small part of what they deal with. There's other serious projects, things like the 836whp Dodge Viper (almost 1000bhp @ the fly) and various track and race teams who's cars they look after and tune.

 

[TheJesus]

can you just buy the inlet cam, if the exhaust is the stock profile?

I had wondered this myself, but tbh I'd rather have a more durable billet cam shaft that not Renault's. Also I'm not sure if it's just the duration that's the same, could be...

 

[Eros]

You need the same cams that I have in mine.

Cat cams part number: 5502420

INTAKE EXHAUST


clearance [cl] 0.00mm 0.00mm
duration [0.1mm+cl] 268° 256°
duration [1.0mm+cl] 230° 218°
valve lift [cl=0] 11.25mm 10.20mm REQUIRED PARTS
cam lift 5.70mm 5.20mm
peak angle 124° 104° followers: O.E.M.
timing [1.0mm+cl] -9/59° 33/ 5° retainers: O.E.M.
lift at TDC [cl=0] 0.40mm 1.55mm springs: O.E.M.


information & important remarks:

# FIA Gr.N-5616,N-5637,N-5659

# The VVT system on the intake camshaft changes the cam timing (and so the lift at TDC):
- 1st intake valve: 124° (disengaged) // 108° (engaged)
- 2nd intake valve: 128° (disengaged) // 112° (engaged)
- 1st exhaust valve: 108° (no VVT)
- 2nd exhaust valve: 104° (no VVT)
Please make sure there is enough distance between valve and piston when the VVT system is engaged.


These will work with a stock ECU, ideally remapped, but they will work with requiring any other messing around.

So : if the values on my next cam are quite the same as those... it´s supposed to work with a remaped standard ECU right?

 

[TheJesus]

yes, the above work fine on stock management and can be a like for like swap with the OE ones.

 

[Carlos Fandango]

You need the same cams that I have in mine.

Cat cams part number: 5502420

INTAKE EXHAUST


clearance [cl] 0.00mm 0.00mm
duration [0.1mm+cl] 268° 256°
duration [1.0mm+cl] 230° 218°
valve lift [cl=0] 11.25mm 10.20mm REQUIRED PARTS
cam lift 5.70mm 5.20mm
peak angle 124° 104° followers: O.E.M.
timing [1.0mm+cl] -9/59° 33/ 5° retainers: O.E.M.
lift at TDC [cl=0] 0.40mm 1.55mm springs: O.E.M.


information & important remarks:

# FIA Gr.N-5616,N-5637,N-5659

# The VVT system on the intake camshaft changes the cam timing (and so the lift at TDC):
- 1st intake valve: 124° (disengaged) // 108° (engaged)
- 2nd intake valve: 128° (disengaged) // 112° (engaged)
- 1st exhaust valve: 108° (no VVT)
- 2nd exhaust valve: 104° (no VVT)
Please make sure there is enough distance between valve and piston when the VVT system is engaged.


These will work with a stock ECU, ideally remapped, but they will work with requiring any other messing around.

If your running these and getting 240bhp, what would you see without the throttle boddies?

 

[Turner]

So how much extra bhp will one get with other standard breathing mods i.e panel,decat,full system?On a 172 ph2

 

[Carlos Fandango]

And why not the 5502428?

 

[Eros]

Jesus ... How much power do you think you get from those cat cams ?

 

[Fred@BTM]

hello Schrick cams!

 

[TheJesus]

Carlos, not sure exactly why, I know they will work, but the car wont idle, I'll get the specific technical reason for you though.

Eros - for the same cams as mine you should see upto and maybe a little over 200bhp with all the right breathing mods and a remap. GDI do a package on their site with that, inlet work and a remap for around £1500 iirc. Mine had that done before bodies and made 196bhp, but is a pretty average engine, better ones will obviously make more.

Also as Fred says you can use Shrick. I'm not sure which of them will run on stock management and springs, followers etc etc, but I've seen nothing to justify the added cost... in fact I dont think I know of one car running them with a dyno/RR sheet, Cat are the comonly used cams so I'll stick with them personally.

 

[Fred@BTM]

Andy should have a few sheets knocking about when his was on schricks

 

[Eros]

hello Schrick cams!

Schick or Cat IF I can get somebody to ship them here are very expensive. The cams I´m takling about, since they are made here in Argentina are kinda 1/4 the price, so I´m very interested on making those cams work.
I can get the cams here AND a standalone ECU for the same price I can get Schick or Cat with anything.
The cams I´m talking about are more wild than Schrick or cat ... I´ve got to get the figures on those cams so I have something more concrete...

 

[Fred@BTM]

schrick are
288inlet
280exhaust

 

[TheJesus]

Eros - just remember that if they are wilder the chances are they need stand alone management and also solid lifters (which I dont know of any available).

Fred, what's the lift at TDC and on inlet and exhaust on those, they sound pretty wild for stock management etc?

 

[Fred@BTM]

yes well ben reckons they measure the duration in some odd way, but i'm not sure

lift is 11.42mm

at TDC its inlet 0.57, exhaust 1.40

 

[TheJesus]

no idea on that tbh, I thought it would be a standard measurement on all cams.

is that 11.42 on the inlet side or exhaust?

I think mine are 1.5mm at TDC and are the least wild ones Cat do for stock engines and management... so I'm looking at upgrading them to something as wild as I can get away with without needing solid lifters (as I dont believe anyone does them for a 1*2 yet?)

 

[Fred@BTM]

they do exist, but not exactly cheap! we have a few customers in spain that run them

 

[matty w]

surely by running the wildest cam possible the car is going to lifeless below 5grand wouldnt you rather have a car with useable power

 

[Fred@BTM]

depends what he's using the car for! if its for going shoping he won't be wanting a wild cam!

 

[Eros]

depends what he's using the car for! if its for going shoping he won't be wanting a wild cam!

It´s very cool to go shopping with wild car... not very comftable or easy or economic or safe... but very cool indeed...

 

[redroze]

and what about the nweman performance cams, they can run with OE ECU? or do they need remap/stand alone?

 

[TheJesus]

surely by running the wildest cam possible the car is going to lifeless below 5grand wouldnt you rather have a car with useable power

not necessarily, the GDI demo uses the wildest cams Cat do without requiring solid lifters and that's got plenty of torque and power below 5k. Would have thought it depends on how they are timed in really.

 

[en035]

how about this recently ordered it from Colombo&Bariani

Camshaft details
Part No. R2R.SM1
Make Renault
Model CLIO 2000 RS
Model with phase variator
Camshafts codes R2R.057.286S (1)
R2R.055.280S (1)

Application Road medium
Cam lift IN 5.7
Cam lift EX 5.5
Duration 286°/280°
Timing 19°-87° / 70°-30°
Timing with phase variator opened 39°-52° / 70°-30°
Lobe center angles 124°
Lobe center angles with phase variator opened 104°/ °
Valve lift TDC 0.5 / 1.2
Valve lift TDC with phase variator opened 3.5 / 1.2
Clearance Hydraulic tappets

 

[TheJesus]

odd... doesn't appear to be much in the way of lift at TDC or on the inlet and exhaust side... :S

 

[en035]

^^^^ Is this comment for Colombo?

what I have been told is Schrick Cams are of very good quality but profile is very wild so tickover is not gonna be very stable. So I preferred the Colombo&Bariani. Have not received it yet since the factory is off till the end of this month. I will be having it in 15 days once I get it installed I will post my view.

 

[TheJesus]

aye, would be interesting to hear the results mate. the duration is the same as the Shricks pretty much, so would be interesting to see how they get on with stock management at tickover.

 

[en035]

aye, would be interesting to hear the results mate. the duration is the same as the Shricks pretty much, so would be interesting to see how they get on with stock management at tickover.

mine is superchipped though.

At the moment

k-tec silenced decat
superchip
hillpower bend + ITG panel
remus backbox
all ports matched

150.7 HP ATW

will see what's gonna happen.

 

[en035]

Finally managed to get these installed. Much better stable idle than I was expecting. Crank shaft pulley was f**ed (a little piece was missing) we have ordered the new one. Driving the car without pushing so hard, Surely sound is amazing just changing cams completely changed the sound of the car.

I got only one concern; renault timing belt locking tool can set the cams in two ways with 180 degrees apart. Would it matter or is it symmetric?

Colombo&Bariani's cam profile is almost identical to that of Schrick's.

Best

how about this recently ordered it from Colombo&Bariani

Camshaft details
Part No. R2R.SM1
Make Renault
Model CLIO 2000 RS
Model with phase variator
Camshafts codes R2R.057.286S (1)
R2R.055.280S (1)

Application Road medium
Cam lift IN 5.7
Cam lift EX 5.5
Duration 286°/280°
Timing 19°-87° / 70°-30°
Timing with phase variator opened 39°-52° / 70°-30°
Lobe center angles 124°
Lobe center angles with phase variator opened 104°/ °
Valve lift TDC 0.5 / 1.2
Valve lift TDC with phase variator opened 3.5 / 1.2
Clearance Hydraulic tappets

 

[en035]

update