Under steer advice wanted

[Tony Hunter]

Mark lol. How did you manage that without smashing the keyboard to bit's. I bet your temple veins were bulging.

 

[NorthloopCup]

And you said you wouldn't post

Sharing is caring x

I know! It was to keep the Hunter happy!

Mark lol. How did you manage that without smashing the keyboard to bit's. I bet your temple veins were bulging.

It took some effort Tony - lots.

 

[cliffy858]

Cheers northloopcup, you seemed to sum it all up there. I wish I did a bit more research before I built it, I didn't know the cup wishbones were different at the time. I have to prioritise what I'm going to spend money on next with this car it's already 3 times over the original budget so replacing them now is out of the question. My next big purchase has to be on safety, so a roll cage will be next. However adjustments are free. I want to maximise what I have on the car now without chucking more money at the suspension right now.

I think my plan of attack will be raise the front until wishbones are at a more suitable angle and then raise the rear to give slightly more rake than it has now as been recommended, I will set the front to toe out. Is this the roll Center kit you recommend underdog http://www.pure-motorsport.co.uk/details.php?itemid=243

Regarding more front camber doesn't that compromise braking performance?

The last time I set the car up I loaded it on the trailer, levelled the trailer, then measured from fixed points on the subframe and rear beam mounting points down to the bed of the trailer to set up the height. Would you guys say this is ok? Also shall I make all these adjustments with the car loaded with two people and half a tank of fuel like I usually run with?

Out of interest how do you guys calculate what spring rate to use? Is it like motorcycles measuring static sag and loaded sag?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm still learning.

Cliff.

 

[underdog]

i run 3.5 degrees camber and braking feels no different on my focus to when iv had less camber. not saying it cant affect it but it will be minimul if any i think unless you go silly amounts. id set the ride height without people in the car personally.

and that kit is bump steer correction not roll centre. its usually an extended lower ball joint or new arms with roll centre correction built in.im sure the other guys here will point you in the right direction for one as im not familiar with clio kits.

 

[NorthloopCup]

That's not a roll centre kit mate. It's bump steer. Roll centre and bump steer are 2 completely different things. My advice is work with what you've got to start with.

 

[cliffy858]

That's not a roll centre kit mate. It's bump steer. Roll centre and bump steer are 2 completely different things. My advice is work with what you've got to start with.

Just seen your your roll centre kit in the group buy section mate. I understand now, looks like a good kit.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Cheers northloopcup, you seemed to sum it all up there. I wish I did a bit more research before I built it, I didn't know the cup wishbones were different at the time. I have to prioritise what I'm going to spend money on next with this car it's already 3 times over the original budget so replacing them now is out of the question. My next big purchase has to be on safety, so a roll cage will be next. However adjustments are free. I want to maximise what I have on the car now without chucking more money at the suspension right now.

I think my plan of attack will be raise the front until wishbones are at a more suitable angle and then raise the rear to give slightly more rake than it has now as been recommended, I will set the front to toe out. Is this the roll Center kit you recommend underdog http://www.pure-motorsport.co.uk/details.php?itemid=243

Regarding more front camber doesn't that compromise braking performance?

The last time I set the car up I loaded it on the trailer, levelled the trailer, then measured from fixed points on the subframe and rear beam mounting points down to the bed of the trailer to set up the height. Would you guys say this is ok? Also shall I make all these adjustments with the car loaded with two people and half a tank of fuel like I usually run with?

Out of interest how do you guys calculate what spring rate to use? Is it like motorcycles measuring static sag and loaded sag?

Sorry for all the questions, I'm still learning.

Cliff.

Yeah that's fair enough mate, I can understand your desire for safety equipment over performance stuff. Budget? What are they? Lol!
Ideally you need the car on a flat level surface to set the ride height as well and leave it unloaded. Adjust the o/s/f coilover 1-2 turns more than the n/s too. It will offset your weight when your in the drivers seat - assuming your not a unit. No offence meant! It's an alternative until you get it corner weighted. It's only when you reach the corner weighting stage that you need weight in the car, ie: you and half a tank of fuel.
3 degrees negative camber will only really affect your braking in the wet so I wouldn't let it concern you tbh.

Spring rate calculating is done by experience for me mate. I have 3 points of contact with the car. My hands, my arse and my feet. Combine these with your brain, your ears and a lot of reading/working with guys who know their stuff, you start to get a feel for what's what. If you have a degree of understanding how it all works as well, you end up on the right path. If that sounds condescending I apologise as it's certainly not meant too.

Just seen your your roll centre kit in the group buy section mate. I understand now, looks like a good kit.

Cheers.

 

[cliffy858]

Yeah that's fair enough mate, I can understand your desire for safety equipment over performance stuff. Budget? What are they? Lol!
Ideally you need the car on a flat level surface to set the ride height as well and leave it unloaded. Adjust the o/s/f coilover 1-2 turns more than the n/s too. It will offset your weight when your in the drivers seat - assuming your not a unit. No offence meant! It's an alternative until you get it corner weighted. It's only when you reach the corner weighting stage that you need weight in the car, ie: you and half a tank of fuel.
3 degrees negative camber will only really affect your braking in the wet so I wouldn't let it concern you tbh.

Spring rate calculating is done by experience for me mate. I have 3 points of contact with the car. My hands, my arse and my feet. Combine these with your brain, your ears and a lot of reading/working with guys who know their stuff, you start to get a feel for what's what. If you have a degree of understanding how it all works as well, you end up on the right path. If that sounds condescending I apologise as it's certainly not meant too.

Cheers.

Some helpful advice mate, cheers

I might not go as extreme as 3 negative camber then as most of my track days are likely to be through the winter when it's cold and wet.

No offence taken fellar, I'm fairly clued up when it comes to all things covered in oil and grease but I've had no experience in setting up a track car. Most of my experience in suspension is from a motocross and sports bike background so roll centres and bump steer are alien to me.I like to find out how things work and reasons behind it so that's why I ask so many questions.

If the weathers good the weekend I'll make some adjustments and post some more photos and you guys can give me your opinions if you don't mind and hopefully get it back to brands on the 17 February to test it out.

 

[cliffy858]

I have now raised the whole car up. The front took quite a lot of winding to make any noticeable difference. The wishbones and driveshafts now look to me to be at a more suitable angle. Measuring from the sill there is a 25mm rake although it doesn't look it in the photos. Front camber -2.25, Rear camber -1.7,I haven't set toe yet. What are your opinions now guys?

 

[NorthloopCup]

I have now raised the whole car up. The front took quite a lot of winding to make any noticeable difference. The wishbones and driveshafts now look to me to be at a more suitable angle. Measuring from the sill there is a 25mm rake although it doesn't look it in the photos. Front camber -2.25, Rear camber -1.7,I haven't set toe yet. What are your opinions now guys?

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Wishbone angle looks loads better mate. You'll definitely feel a difference from it. Personally I'd be very tempted to run a tad more camber up front as well. No more than 3 degrees though. My wishbones look similar to that, but I'm lowered a good 50+mm

Set the tracking and get it on track for a shakedown now. Report back with how it feels and what it's doing and we can go from there. Does it have adjustable dampers? I can't remember now tbh. Is it on Gaz?

 

[Tony Hunter]

Mark beat me too it, but yes, looks much better.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Mark beat me too it, but yes, looks much better.

Your powers are weak old man!

 

[cliffy858]

Cheers mate. The wishbones look better but the whole thing looks so high now, it will be interesting to see the difference it makes. It's got the half coilover spax kit with adjustable dampers. I might look into changing to a full coilover set up later on because I don't like the rear spring set up that much. Will probably go to brands on 17 February to try it out and I will report back.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Cheers mate. The wishbones look better but the whole thing looks so high now, it will be interesting to see the difference it makes. It's got the half coilover spax kit with adjustable dampers. I might look into changing to a full coilover set up later on because I don't like the rear spring set up that much. Will probably go to brands on 17 February to try it out and I will report back.

Yeah I'd say your about 10-15mm lower than standard at that ride height now mate tbh. Did you ever post/find out what the spring rates are on the spax setup?

 

[cliffy858]

This is from ktecs website for the newer full coilover kit, not sure if they are the same rate as mine though.

Front spring rates are 342lbs, rear spring rates are 228lbs

 

[Tony Hunter]

Cheers mate. The wishbones look better but the whole thing looks so high now, it will be interesting to see the difference it makes. It's got the half coilover spax kit with adjustable dampers. I might look into changing to a full coilover set up later on because I don't like the rear spring set up that much. Will probably go to brands on 17 February to try it out and I will report back.

Do better down Paddock Hill bend than in your Avatar

 

[cliffy858]

That's why I've got a roll cage on order now

 

[NorthloopCup]

This is from ktecs website for the newer full coilover kit, not sure if they are the same rate as mine though.

Front spring rates are 342lbs, rear spring rates are 228lbs

Fronts are too soft - try a 450lb spring to start with. Rears are waaaaay to soft. If it's track only you want 500's in there as a minimum. The rates you've posted are ideal on the road, but heavily compromised for track. Look at Ast sportline 1's

 

[cliffy858]

Ok,thanks mate, I'll keep a eye out for a used set. It's taken enough of my money for now so I'm going to do a few track days and see how I like it. If not I might just break it next year and buy a used caterham race car.

 

[Edges]

Your ride height and wishbone angles look very similar to mine! I have 1.8 rear camber and 2.3 front so very similar again and mine handles really nice and no really understeer with toe set parallel. I think you'll be happy with that

 

[cliffy858]

Cool mate, that sounds really positive. I'm going to have play around with a few settings this time when I get it on track next to see what affect they have on the handling.

 

[Edges]

Stiffer rear shocks and softer front shocks makes it more oversteery too

 

[wayneashford]

I would run my 888's at 30 psi hot front and rear, it puts them into the 90-95°C range they like to be in, over that and the compounds start to do funny things and it's like driving on ice, under that and they don't make their peak grip.
This was in a 960kg Alfa 33 FWD with 160bhp so shouldn''t be too disimilar, spring rates around 500lb front, 750lb rear but it was 6 years ago so can't quite remember.

 

[cliffy858]

I will try that next time, I noticed they seem to go off over 30psi last time

 

[wayneashford]

Yup it's like throwing a switch