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timing '421
- Thread starter pa.ge
- Start date
Oh thanks Fred ......Hmmm .... you know i've done, maybe, a lot of mistakes on the engine ... with hi comp. pistons and 2.5' exhaust, 197 inlet on and an ecu made a 203- 205bhp/7400 and about 155ft/lbs/5800 on RR figures
and i assumed that can do more than that. (let's say 210Bhp and some more)
I disappoinded ...
and i assumed that can do more than that. (let's say 210Bhp and some more)
I disappoinded ...
Fletcher
ClioSport Club Member
Hmm well i'm not ...:dead: I was hopping for more
So next of 421 would i go str8 to 423 with vvt?
i want something up to more than 210bhp ...without throttle bodies.
Good luck...
RS RIP
I guess he's from down under where the 197 inlet has been tried with good results.. so i guess he's right when he says it could do better
i bought my shelf a gen90 recently. I and a friend trying to do the mapping. Timing is what i want to check but i'm pretty sure is spot on (that's why i'm asking about TDC).
As i wrote i run the engine with 197 inlet manifold, so the oe injectors of clio3rs are on and aren't maxing out.
Yes torque as they told me is low not a bit but at least have to have 8-10 ft/lbs more ... Wheel figures as i can i remember is 175-176 .
I think not ... At least 50-60cc more than rs2 pico's, and either way i give more pulse to injectors and they follow. And as i assumed that i 'll be go up i wasn't sure about the fuel pump and change it with one from a mitsu evo 8 ( about 255lt/h), and with this pump it tends to work on 4+bar.
Now i know. (thank's) And i'll try to check the timing this week too.
So either way i want to go further, up to 210bhp. Is it possible with 421 and single throttle? or 423 (vvt on) will do the job easily ?
"can you run vvt with 423's??
how are you mapping it? i guess you know how to map? "
oh right ... I thought that vvt will probably help with idle. But much overlap never help the idle at all so why do i keep the vvt? It's pointless. Your right... (I had some problems with 421 imagine the 423)
Of mapping? i'm in the process of learning . (i have to do it by my own, nobody near me to do it professionally...)
So let me rephrase my question
Is it possible with 421 and single throttle? or i'm wasting money? And will go on with 423 (vvt deleted) and do the job easily and break the God damn 210bhp wall ?
how are you mapping it? i guess you know how to map? "
oh right ... I thought that vvt will probably help with idle. But much overlap never help the idle at all so why do i keep the vvt? It's pointless. Your right... (I had some problems with 421 imagine the 423)
Of mapping? i'm in the process of learning .
(i have to do it by my own, nobody near me to do it professionally...)So let me rephrase my question
Is it possible with 421 and single throttle? or i'm wasting money? And will go on with 423 (vvt deleted) and do the job easily and break the God damn 210bhp wall ?
Last edited:
Agreed!
'anyone' CAN map.... but not many can do it right, even at the OEM's there are diabolical calibrators lol.
TBH this is a bit of a lairy engine to be learning with too as it will cost a lot when you get it wrong, or you limit what it can do by staying far too safe.
I'd get a few cheap and nasty engines to learn with and then move to a good one
If possible? What can i say? To buy a brand new set of camshafts and is off by 10° degrees from the reference point? Oh f2ck ...
Τoday i had a briliant idea ! I was keep thinking what Fred said about the rs2 injectors " injectors not maxing out?? (205bhp is about the limit for OE ones IIRC)" and "clio 3 RS injectors i would assume will be same/similar spec to RS 2 (pico 042)"
And i reply with " either way i give more pulse to injectors and they follow "
1st) The idea here is or Fred is wrong about the capasity of the Rs3 injectors that i use or the engine don't produce 203-205Bhp. My opinion is that i know my self, my driving skills, and that this car or it's weght a lot more that 1080 kg or is less than 200bhp or may say that renault engines are dead meat and need 10bhp more to give the momentum that i'm looking for ...
2nd) In about 5 or 6 months ago, they build a Dyno-Dynamics RR near by. Ιt's a Rolling road that you have one and believe in the numbers that presents ...
Why not to take a visit by me?
So i went there this morning... All i have to say is that MAHA RR are a bug of sh1t !!!
Torque is on Nm/ Power is on PS
Dyno sheet on the fly
Dyno on the wheels
Dyno fly vs A/F ratio
It's obvious that on round, square and X sections, the fuel needs an adjust to come near the 12.5 or may be say near 13.0:1 ...
What is your thoughts about It ? I assume that i have lots of problems.
can you help me? where to start?
I know that the car drives fast and eat's an audi 1.8 S3 for breakfast but it hasn't the momentum that i'm searching of ... 189ps is wrong don't you think? From hi comp pistons+421+197 inlet+2.5' exhaust+ ECU+R3 induction.
ITB'd MK1
you can see injector duty cycle quite easily in gwv4. Right click on the fuel map, and a menu will pop up, look about 3/4 of the way down and you will see an option to view Raw, Duty cycle or pulse width. Select duty cycle then at the next popup select semisequential.
Looks like you're running a bit on the rich side, aim for 12.9-13.1 from about 4k rpm onwards at WOT, that could see you 3-4bhp alone. ignition timing NEEDS a dyno to get right, you can never get better than about 85% right from road mapping.
Looks like you're running a bit on the rich side, aim for 12.9-13.1 from about 4k rpm onwards at WOT, that could see you 3-4bhp alone. ignition timing NEEDS a dyno to get right, you can never get better than about 85% right from road mapping.
Thank's Dany... You know about Gen's ! That's impressive ! and where to look for the vvt drive into?
So okay, 3-4 bhp from fuel optimize and say another 3-4bhp from vvt engage and some 2-3 ignition timing all though i've test it with ear-knock and with 25° have some knocks, with 27° the hell of knocks and with 22° works weak @ the 7000-7500rpm
The 189bhp come with 23°@7000-7500rpm
Say somewhere 197bhp... Is that all?
So okay, 3-4 bhp from fuel optimize and say another 3-4bhp from vvt engage and some 2-3 ignition timing all though i've test it with ear-knock and with 25° have some knocks, with 27° the hell of knocks and with 22° works weak @ the 7000-7500rpm
The 189bhp come with 23°@7000-7500rpm
Say somewhere 197bhp... Is that all?
ITB'd MK1
the trouble with listening for knock on the road is it's not always an indication of what spark timing you need to see peak output. What octane fuel are you using?
ITB'd MK1
that's probably a pretty big limitation. Try out some octane booster/additives (and keep a note of the ratio you've used)
Need a bit more info to suggest what else to look at really. VVT on/off switch point as Fred mentioned needs setting to the right place, this is unlikely to be optimal at the same revs as stock cams
Need a bit more info to suggest what else to look at really. VVT on/off switch point as Fred mentioned needs setting to the right place, this is unlikely to be optimal at the same revs as stock cams
Yap i know.... it's hi comp. pistons 12.8- 13.0:1 In any case, crank pressure to 1st cylinder is 230, 2nd 240
3rd 240, 4rth 230psi. That's hi don't you think?
"VVT on/off switch point as Fred mentioned needs setting to the right place"
you mean 1600rpm switch on and 7800rpm Off, or it is capable to switch it off and on when ever i wand to succed the optimal ? optimal by turn it off? That's an on/off operation...
(of course you know the state of the vvt operation... What a Danny would be without sideways ... You know to come off this sh1t that i'm into to, i'm taking word by word everything that you're writting. And you my friend talk a little !!! Hahaha)
3rd 240, 4rth 230psi. That's hi don't you think?
"VVT on/off switch point as Fred mentioned needs setting to the right place"
you mean 1600rpm switch on and 7800rpm Off, or it is capable to switch it off and on when ever i wand to succed the optimal ? optimal by turn it off? That's an on/off operation...
(of course you know the state of the vvt operation... What a Danny would be without sideways
... You know to come off this sh1t that i'm into to, i'm taking word by word everything that you're writting. And you my friend talk a little !!! Hahaha)
ITB'd MK1
I would expect the vvt to need turning back off around the 6.5k mark actually, but you can experiment with this to see what yields the best results, move the switch point and see where it's at it's best, it will definitely need turning off before the limiter. Oh and while you're looking at the limiter, if you look at where power is dropping off (from 7.3k) you're revving WAY past where you need to, I'd be limiting at 7.5-7.6k maximum, especially if you dont have uprated valve springs.
I've seen similar compression results from forged high compression builds, that's a serious CR to be running, i wouldn't risk anything less than 98ron
Can the dyno you used for power runs not map the car for you?
oh and 197/200 injectors are siemens deka, not peco, quite different in their shape as they have a long nozzle. Also slightly higher flow capacity (which i can't remember becuase it's 18 months since i looked lol)
I've seen similar compression results from forged high compression builds, that's a serious CR to be running, i wouldn't risk anything less than 98ron
Can the dyno you used for power runs not map the car for you?
oh and 197/200 injectors are siemens deka, not peco, quite different in their shape as they have a long nozzle. Also slightly higher flow capacity (which i can't remember becuase it's 18 months since i looked lol)
lift number 1 @ btm
Aren't 423's what I'm on? If so they do seperate cams with and without vvt.
lift number 1 @ btm
Pretty sure they do both, Mine are definately delete though.
Hang on, i'll go look.
*Edit* Yeah, you can have either.
http://www.catcams.be/800x600/mainframe.htm?english
Hang on, i'll go look.
*Edit* Yeah, you can have either.
http://www.catcams.be/800x600/mainframe.htm?english
lift number 1 @ btm
Ah, b****cks, that link doesn't go to where I was looking.
ENGINE information
clearance[cl]0.00mm0.00mmduration[0.1mm+cl]292°284°duration[1.0mm+cl]255°247°valve lift[cl=0]11.25mm11.25mmREQUIRED PARTScam lift5.70mm5.70mmpeak angle104°104°followers:O.E.M.timing[1.0mm+cl]24/51°47/20°retainers:O.E.M.lift at TDC[cl=0]3.95mm3.40mmsprings:PAC-E99862
information & important remarks:#! [link] spring info for Renault Clio 2.0L 16v RS#to use double spring [ref.PAC-D92009] on retainer [ref. 99388]:remove O.E.M. valve seal and use flat shim to adjust fitted spring length#The original intake camshaft is equipped with a VVT (vanos) system. Catcams can supply this camshaft1/ for use with VVT system (similar to original intake camshaft)-> 55024xx (hydro) / 55025xx (mech)2/ for use without VVT system an adjustable pulley ref. CTRE006 (similar to exhaust camshaft)-> 55034xx (hydro) / 55035xx (mech)IMPORTANT:- the timing data are shown for use without VVT system and fixed pulley- when ordering, please indicate the type of intake cam you need by using the correct partnumber code#ONLY for use in race engines with adjustable engine management or carburettors.
** I give up, just click on the 5502423 on the list of cams.
ENGINE information
◄
5502423
►
INTAKEEXHAUSTclearance[cl]0.00mm0.00mmduration[0.1mm+cl]292°284°duration[1.0mm+cl]255°247°valve lift[cl=0]11.25mm11.25mmREQUIRED PARTScam lift5.70mm5.70mmpeak angle104°104°followers:O.E.M.timing[1.0mm+cl]24/51°47/20°retainers:O.E.M.lift at TDC[cl=0]3.95mm3.40mmsprings:PAC-E99862
** I give up, just click on the 5502423 on the list of cams.
