Road legal track cars maybe a thing of the past... new mot rules

[massiveCoRbyn]

If your head is close enough to the cage when you're strapped into the seat for headbutting the cage to be a risk, I should think your seat needs moving...

 

[AlanWak]

I've not mentioned seats moving, merely occupants, and surely you can see the difference between a 3 point inertia belt and a 6 point harness in a rollover in terms of you head, neck and ability to move if the roof comes in. Buckets and harnesses by their very design hold you bolt upright with your spine in column and give your head nowhere to go.

Your comment on rollcages is also misleading, there is NO padding which provides an acceptable solution to bashing your head off a cage.

Personally, if you want to compete in a car with buckets and harnesses, you should have a cage, and if you arent going to wear a helmet it should be a rear cage only and entirely behind the seats. That's getting away from the MOT regulations entirely, but it's good common sense.

I totally agree with you that it needs to be clarified, unfortunately the route to achieve this is likely to be each discipline lobbying the MSA with their individual issues and then the MSA taking the whole shebang to the DVSA. At this stage, I think it's lucky there is any form of exception!

Your earlier comment was "Using buckets and harnesses without a cage in a lot of cars will have you killed by the roof in a roll because you dont move as the manufacturer intended and unless youre very short, using a roll cage without a helmet will result in you being killed by the cage".

I took that as the seat moving, not the potential to move the head/torso sideways due to wearing a lap and diagonal seat belt. Having rolled on several occasions with lap and diagonal belts, I didn't move very far and wouldn't want to, the main purpose of the seat belt is restraint, not directing the body to move in a certain direction. Again, I'd be happy to be proven wrong if lap and diagonal seat beltts are designed to enable the head to move to the side. I believe they exist for convenience more than anything else, with a four/five/six point harness being more likely to restrain the body.

I haven't been able to find anything which supports lap and diagonal being "better" in a rolling situation when the roof comes "down" than a full harness. Likewise I haven't been able to find any proof of a bucket and harness causing additional injuries without a cage. I'd rather be restrained more effectively in a bucket with harness than a standard seat with lap and diagonal as I believe there's more chance of being injured by being thrown around the car than the roof coming down to affect me. But every accident is different.

I've competed in cars with only rear cages and have hit my head badly on the door frame and grab handles. In fact it was so bad I had to borrow a BMX helmet (to wear on off road Selectifs) to save my head! I'd NEVER suggest just fitting a rear cage, you may as well fit a full cage while the car is apart. A front cage you can cover with homologated FIA fire retardant padding. It's far more forgiving to the head than a steel tube or the door frame/grab handle! My head is quite close to the padding so there's not much space for the head to build momentum. I've driven the same Selectif with and without a front cage, a padded front cage is way better. I'm out competing most weekends in some discipline and have never suffered from my head hitiing the padded cage - my head hits the padding but no pain. If the front cage wasn't padded then it would be a different story.

But we digress. Bottom line is that the guidance given for the MOT is incorrect and misleading WRT Competition Vehicles, which could lead to Testers being inconsistent. If the letter of the new MOT is implemented then many mildly modified cars will fall foul and there could be a significant impact on entry level Motorsport. As a result I've started the process to raise this with the MSA, starting with the ASWMC to follow due process. I'll probably end up going directly to the MSA as this progresses.

Now to finish preparations for the Bath Festival Targa Rally, if it runs, due to the weather. Most events are being called off this weekend.

 

[DaveDreads]

@DaveDreads the difference is a) the harnesses (see earlier comments about a complete safety system) and b) that its not for competition. If you have the standard three point belt you need the airbag.

Once again, actual competition cars with all the safety kit, fine. Some chav in a corsa with cobra monacos, standard belts and a non airbag wheel isnt.

So potentially a stripped out track day Clio with full cage, buckets, harnesses, aftermarket steering wheel with no drivers airbag will pass as long as it can be classed as a competition car, but there in lies the problem, what is classed as competition, a timed event like a sprint, hill climb or even drag strip event which doesn't require you have any sort of special licence or certificate from a governing body, or a full on MSA licence or similar?

There's way too much grey area in the wording of the proposal, competition car covers a hell of a lot more than a rally put on by a governing body with special licences and trophies and prizes for the winner.

Again the phrase 'boy racer' being banded about could potentially cover everything from a 17 year old chav box to the most immaculate no expense spared custom build for a high end car show, both are modified cars that aren't going to be used in competitive motorsport, but they're worlds apart in terms of their need for an mot certificate.

 

[AlanWak]

The issue is there are two specs of certified padding.
The first is like pipe lagging, its round, wrap around and soft and its designed to stop you banging your knee or head climbing in and out of the car, it WILL NOT protect your head in a crash.
The other kind is a hard material which either looks like rubber or has a grain like polystyrene and is glued to one side of the roll bar tube and its designed to prevent point loading your helmet shell and reduce the decelleration of your head on impact. It's energy absorbing, but because its about a inch thick, and has to absord the energy of your head and helmet in a crash, its pretty solid at @harvsurrey says and without a helmet isnt going to help you much.

@DaveDreads the difference is a) the harnesses (see earlier comments about a complete safety system) and b) that its not for competition. If you have the standard three point belt you need the airbag.

Once again, actual competition cars with all the safety kit, fine. Some chav in a corsa with cobra monacos, standard belts and a non airbag wheel isnt.

Looks like I'm a chav then!

Sorry, I don't mean to have a go at you, I'm just pointing out how silly this all is and that a definition of a true Competition Car is required to enable low cost entry level Motorsport to exist. Most cars used for entry level Motorsport will be old and modified in some way, quite often just to save a little money eg poly bushes as standard rubber bushes wear out so quickly. A replacement steering wheel is normally the first thing I do as I like the wheel close to me.

Last year I finished second overall in the BTRDA (National) Autosolo Championship (by one point, caught in the rain at Mitcheldean when everyone else in class had dry runs!). I started the year in a 172, non-standard steering wheel, no air bag, standard seats and seat belt. I then swapped to a Micra (built by Humphris of Oxford for competition) with a non-standard steering wheel (the car probably never had an air bag, being registered in 1995), bucket seat and standard seat belt. No cages in Clio or Micra. I also have a couple of rally cars which do have full cages, hence the comments above regarding padding.

I've used both cars in this spec for Autosolos, Sprints, Rallies and Autotests. So 172 and Micra are clearly Competition Cars, but could fail the MOT as they're not modified enough! We don't want highly modified, expensive cars in entry level motorsport, but a few sensible mods shouldn't cause the failure of an MOT test. Yes, I feel very strongly about this as it affects years of work making Motorsport accessible to a wider range of people.

 

[...]

Its an absolute minefield , and the cars in a roll thing is car dependant too

Roll a 205 and god help you , roll a clio 200 and i bet i folds less

I will dig out pics of my R5 rolled at cadwell


Basically folded round the cage

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[AlanWak]

I agree with you @DaveDreads, there is no adequate definition of a "Competition Car". The "Rally Car" definition is poor and misleading - my rally cars have full cages, buckets and six point harnesses, but I have to have all the trim plus rear seats and can't run number squares/circles.. They also don't need MSA log books. So is my car a "Rally Car" as it doesn't meet the only attempt at a Competition Car description which I've seen. All the Scrutineering stickers on the roll cage would strongly suggest that it is a Rally Car!

Yes, there are many more disciplines than Rallying where Competition Cars need an MOT. And what is "Competition"? Anything timed has to be considered Competiitive. But Track Days aren't timed, therefore not Competitive, so by definition all original safety equipment is required in a Track Day car. It's so vague I'm amazed that the document has got this far. But at least it's open to interpretation so cars will be able to obtain valid MOTs with the right tester. Surely not what was intended.

 

[DaveDreads]

Looks like my plans for a cage, buckets, harnesses and an aftermarket wheel are still on then, yes eventually it's only ever going to get used on track days, but as long as I do at least 1 timed event a year it can be classed as a competition car, or not, who knows? Certainly not the people that drafted these new MOT rules.

 

[Sunglasses_Ron]

Gotta get mine MOT’d soon. No airbags, fixed buckets, cage etc... Wonder how this will go.

View attachment 1357581

That is looking f**king amazing mate

 

[AlanWak]

I rolled my ex-works 205 end over end in Ringwood Forest, starting at around 80mph. We were fine, mainly as the front dug in, flipped us, then landed on a rear wheel which absorbed a great deal of the force as it was knocked off. The shell was banana shaped, but they have to give to absorb the energy. Yep, every accident is different. The shell should bend around the cage.

I should also add that the likes of Autosolos and Road Rallies are relatively low speed events. Road Rallies are timed at an average of 30mph. Cars built to handle huge impacts aren't relevant for these events as you're normally not going very fast.

 

[alistairolsen]

If your head is close enough to the cage when you're strapped into the seat for headbutting the cage to be a risk, I should think your seat needs moving...

It's not normally headbutting the windscreen tube thats the problem, it's the one beside your head above the door frame, which especially with bolt in cages can be fairly well inboard and low if you're tall. Once again, fine if the seat is setup for you, for competition, not so much if it's installed on off the shelf bases and sliders. (like most road cars for example)

I took that as the seat moving....

I'd NEVER suggest just fitting a rear cage, you may as well fit a full cage while the car is apart. A front cage you can cover with homologated FIA fire retardant padding. It's far more forgiving to the head than a steel tube or the door frame/grab handle!

But we digress. Bottom line is that the guidance given for the MOT is incorrect and misleading WRT Competition Vehicles, which could lead to Testers being inconsistent.

I know you did, but that wasnt what I said.

You're entitled to your opinion, I'd ask for it after a bad accident but I fear you wont be here to give it. Sure that padding makes life more comfortable in normal use, and unlike pipe lagging, is certified for use in cars and fire retardant, but it IS NOT designed to absord the energy of a head impact in a crash and should not be relied upon to do so.

Yep, agreed entired, as I've said several times now 😂

So potentially a stripped out track day Clio with full cage, buckets, harnesses, aftermarket steering wheel with no drivers airbag will pass as long as it can be classed as a competition car, but there in lies the problem, what is classed as competition, a timed event like a sprint, hill climb or even drag strip event which doesn't require you have any sort of special licence or certificate from a governing body, or a full on MSA licence or similar?

People are getting VERY hung up on the definitions. Unless you take your car to kwikfit for an MOT (and you deserve what you get if you do, the point is that there is an ammendment for modified vehicles, otherwise instead of pissing and moaning about maybes, we'd all be moaning about the death of rallying and modified road cars.

Personally I dont think road rules should be exlusive to use, but focussed on safety, so I'd far rather see the rules tightened in terms of safe equipment combinations, than a free for all if you have a time card from an autosolo.

 

[alistairolsen]

Looks like I'm a chav then!

Sorry, I don't mean to have a go at you, I'm just pointing out how silly this all is and that a definition of a true Competition Car is required to enable low cost entry level Motorsport to exist. Most cars used for entry level Motorsport will be old and modified in some way, quite often just to save a little money eg poly bushes as standard rubber bushes wear out so quickly. A replacement steering wheel is normally the first thing I do as I like the wheel close to me.

We don't want highly modified, expensive cars in entry level motorsport, but a few sensible mods shouldn't cause the failure of an MOT test. Yes, I feel very strongly about this as it affects years of work making Motorsport accessible to a wider range of people.

I agree entirely, but I dont think solving the issue is trivial.

True, and polybushes arent a problem

I've done autosolos as well, although always in vehicles which predated airbags, however I used to use a clip in harness and keep it in a bag in the boot for instance. I'm not even going to start on the visibility issues of using a 5 point harness in traffic.

Its an absolute minefield , and the cars in a roll thing is car dependant too

Roll a 205 and god help you , roll a clio 200 and i bet i folds less

I will dig out pics of my R5 rolled at cadwell


Basically folded round the cage

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

Yeah modern cars are certainly better, but how do you write an MOT where mods are acceptable on some cars but not others, a 2002 clio is ok, but another car from the same year is not?

I agree with you @DaveDreads, there is no adequate definition of a "Competition Car". The "Rally Car" definition is poor and misleading - my rally cars have full cages, buckets and six point harnesses, but I have to have all the trim plus rear seats and can't run number squares/circles.. They also don't need MSA log books. So is my car a "Rally Car" as it doesn't meet the only attempt at a Competition Car description which I've seen. All the Scrutineering stickers on the roll cage would strongly suggest that it is a Rally Car!

Yes, there are many more disciplines than Rallying where Competition Cars need an MOT. And what is "Competition"? Anything timed has to be considered Competiitive. But Track Days aren't timed, therefore not Competitive, so by definition all original safety equipment is required in a Track Day car. It's so vague I'm amazed that the document has got this far. But at least it's open to interpretation so cars will be able to obtain valid MOTs with the right tester. Surely not what was intended.

Looks like my plans for a cage, buckets, harnesses and an aftermarket wheel are still on then, yes eventually it's only ever going to get used on track days, but as long as I do at least 1 timed event a year it can be classed as a competition car, or not, who knows? Certainly not the people that drafted these new MOT rules.

I guess the pertinent question is whether anyone using their car for competition has actually had a problem obtaining an MOT.....

 

[alistairolsen]

I should also add that the likes of Autosolos and Road Rallies are relatively low speed events. Road Rallies are timed at an average of 30mph. Cars built to handle huge impacts aren't relevant for these events as you're normally not going very fast.

Which is fine as an argument for why you dont need a cage or airbag in second gear in a carpark, but not when you then want an MOT, which gives you the right to use the same vehicle at 60mph down a back road or at 70mph on a motorway

 

[JB21]

Glad I don't have a road legal track car no more, sounds like its gonna be a right ball ache!

 

[bloke]

it's not really changed to be fair. i've put all sorts through test and never had an issue apart from when something doesn't have a cat. main thing to go by is 'if it's not there it can't fail' that covers the majority of it.

get clued up on how the test works, what can and can't fail and find a tester who is clued up as well. key word is 'modified' not rally car.

 

[Vaughan]

It's interesting comparing the different approaches to driver safety for street vehicles and those for motorsport such as F1. In both cases the vehicles have never been safer, but bnoth use very different approaches based on the differeing amount of kinetic energy involved.

Safety in street vehicles with typical speeds of ~100 km/h is bease around the controlled decelleration of the occupant. The vehicle crumples to slow down and absorb energy, the seat belts allow the occupant to move forward in a controlled manner and air bags inflate then deflate to control the decelleration to standstill. Seat and heat rests (head restraints) are designed to control head movement and minimise spine and neck injury.

High speed vehicles in motorsport have exactly the opposite approach. The occupant is harnessed to an extremely rigid frame to minimise body movement. HANS devices prevent the head and neck movement limited.

Both system have been designed and tested over decades to provide optimum safety for the target speeds and conditions. The challenge is when vehicles are modified so the safety system is no longer complete.

Road car: crumple zones, lap-sash belts and pretensioners, seats with head restraints, airbags
Race car: rigid occupant cell, 6-point harness, HANS device and helmet

The new MOT leglislation seems to be saying that the safety system that the car was complied with needs to be complete. Otherwise don't drive it on the road.

BTW this is business as usual for Australia. You'll get used to it.

 

[DaveDreads]

I guess the pertinent question is whether anyone using their car for competition has actually had a problem obtaining an MOT.....

Obviously not at the moment, but come May I guess we'll all find out when the tighter rules come into effect, hopefully it's just a storm in a tea cup and nothing much will change.

 

[bloke]

the changes are clearly aimed at diesels, if anyone can't see this then they haven't looked at it properly or have just read what the internet or newspapers are blabbing on about it :wink:

Obviously not at the moment, but come May I guess we'll all find out when the tighter rules come into effect, hopefully it's just a storm in a tea cup and nothing much will change.

nothing has really changed as far as modified stuff goes, seem to be a lot of people flapping about nothing.

 

[Goodj]

That's how you have a "Road Legal Track Car"

 

[BoatNonce]

Badmanz not running a front plate though.

 

[Goodj]

Badmanz not running a front plate though.

And he won't be getting mad respec with that tiny exhaust. Not even an Agriprovicultural one.

Got a dashcam running though, so probably just out to lay down some social-media justice to anyone who pulls into their lane without giving a 1/2 mile warning.

BTW this is business as usual for Australia. You'll get used to it.

A lot of butthurt will need to be processed before the effected begin to remotely "get used to it", believe me.

 

[AlanWak]

This has now been raised with John Ryan (MSA Technical Director).

 

[...]

And he won't be getting mad respec with that tiny exhaust. Not even an Agriprovicultural one.

Got a dashcam running though, so probably just out to lay down some social-media justice to anyone who pulls into their lane without giving a 1/2 mile warning.




A lot of butthurt will need to be processed before the effected begin to remotely "get used to it", believe me.

You do realise what that is and are being sarcastic right ?? [emoji4]

7.22 round the ring was pretty impressive for a 998cc car

Sent from my SM-G950F using Tapatalk

 

[BoatNonce]

I'm going to go out on a limb and say he does know what it is

 

[Goodj]

This has now been raised with John Ryan (MSA Technical Director).

Who is unlikely to give too many cares, given the bonefide, registered vehicles aren't affected.
It may cause tears for retail-park heroes nationwide, but from my experience not many of those are dropping money into their licenses and championship entry fees.

 

[BoatNonce]

Lolwut.

My MX-5 doesn’t have a logbook and with the previous owner it was 4th in the MX5 class of the HSA Speed Championship.

 

[Goodj]

Lolwut.

My MX-5 doesn’t have a logbook and with the previous owner it was 4th in the MX5 class of the HSA Speed Championship.

It does have a fistful of scrutineering passes though.

Unlike your average CS "Track Project" which does an evening taster session at bedford then spends the rest of it's days up and down dual carriageways, before getting broken for parts.

 

[BoatNonce]

Yes but the point is that the MSA is in a position to make a complaint to the relevant chiefs, and should do so to protect the interests of its club level racers.

You’re right though, it’s aimed at the trackday heroes.

 

[AlanWak]

This appeared in the minutes from the latest MSA Technical Committee Meeting:

"CHANGES TO MOT REGULATIONS
A query has been raised by a member of the Speed Events Committee as the new MOT regulations are apparently restrictive on modifications; they do however include an exemption for "rally vehicles". This could cause problems with other competition cars that require an MOT. Mr Harris suggested that the MSA needs to come to an agreement with VOSA for exemptions for genuine competition cars. The current VOSA exemption states "rally cars etc" so other competition cars may well be included. The Committee agreed that no action was required at present but will keep a watching brief for any difficulties."

So let's see what happens. If you have an MOT issue regarding modifications with a genuine competition car then contact MSA Technical. The "member of the Speed Events Committee" is my contact in this area.

My Clio is booked for its MOT next Wednesday. The MOT is due on 20th May but it should be tested under existing regulations. I'll have a good chat with the MOT Tester, he passed my 205 GTi yesterday!

 

[Raceface_13]

I recently had my car mot'd with my usual MOT'er who does a lot of "rally cars" and mini's used in race series, known him for 8-9 years and always have a chat.
he said with the regulations being enforced more/changes that my car (cage, buckets, harness, no airbags etc etc) could potentially have problems passing at another garage. also said my cars better put together/modified than some of the rally cars he see's, I think if you take it to a jobs worth or kwik fit etc then you may encounter problems, but if you take it somewhere with some background in motorsport/competitions then I cant see it being a problem.