Research before a head work

[Johan_f]

Hi everybody this is my first post here, i have mostly read around for information and inspiration before my build.

Now i finally have a few questions

Purpose of the engine is mostly track days, aiming for hp 200+ and 8000 rpm maybe more rpm if needed, forged internals, head work (ported and flow tested) modified valve train

Calculated intake/exhaust manifolds and custom made if needed. Will probably ITB it if i can fit parts laying around


1. Anyone have pictures or a link to picture at heads cut in sections revealing material thickness around the ports.

2. What kind of CFD values have you (Tuners) before and after a head work

2. What valve size commonly used, standard or bigger (what size)

Tips and tricks are always nice to read about, love to hear from other about there experience in tuning this engine

Regards Johan

Sorry for my bad technical English terms, pls correct me

 

[Ph1 Tom]

On a F4R for around 230-240bhp you don't need to worry about all the above so much and keep the standard valve train with uprated valve springs. It's easily achievable with off the shelf parts

You can do around 210bhp on a standard engine with cams and itbs.

So you say 200+ but what do you really want? Anything over 230-240 is seriously expensive.

Personally I'd stop at that level because of A. Costs and B. Very high piston speed because of the 93mm stroke.

I should also ask, which engine and version of the engine do you have?

 

[Chip-mk1]

8000rpm+ isnt needed on these engines unless you are building a very serious engine as they are such terrible geometry for revving that they tend to peak in the 7s even on fairly hot cams, and to go further will really put the costs up (quite a few thousand euros on the valve train to get much over 8Krpm)

 

[BIGASH]

£7k I recon to rev over 8k rpm semi reliably!

That's just on top of everything else needed for an engine build

 

[Johan_f]

On a F4R for around 230-240bhp you don't need to worry about all the above so much and keep the standard valve train with uprated valve springs. It's easily achievable with off the shelf parts

You can do around 210bhp on a standard engine with cams and itbs.

So you say 200+ but what do you really want? Anything over 230-240 is seriously expensive.

Personally I'd stop at that level because of A. Costs and B. Very high piston speed because of the 93mm stroke.

I should also ask, which engine and version of the engine do you have?

Its a 172 ph1 Engine

I checked the rod ratio after my first post and was supriced about the ratio of 1.5:1, a standard 4g63 have 1.7:1 and i expected the F4r in the same ballpark

The F4r reache the 25 m/s piston speed @ 8065 rpm/m if getting higher piston speed and the piston out-run the flame front



240 ish was my plan, but put out 200+ in the post to not get to much negative comments in the begining. (unfortunally common around some forums)

The head will be ported and flow tested by a friend free of charge, we will flow the head before and after. My friend will calulate the lenght for the intake/exhaust for me

and then will i build everything.

8000rpm+ isnt needed on these engines unless you are building a very serious engine as they are such terrible geometry for revving that they tend to peak in the 7s even on fairly hot cams, and to go further will really put the costs up (quite a few thousand euros on the valve train to get much over 8Krpm)

Why is it that they peak at 7k, with 1000k more before hitting 25 m/s piston speed? Cams? Head?

Regards Johan

 

[Chip-mk1]

Its a 172 ph1 Engine

I checked the rod ratio after my first post and was supriced about the ratio of 1.5:1, a standard 4g63 have 1.7:1 and i expected the F4r in the same ballpark

The F4r reache the 25 m/s piston speed @ 8065 rpm/m if getting higher piston speed and the piston out-run the flame front



240 ish was my plan, but put out 200+ in the post to not get to much negative comments in the begining. (unfortunally common around some forums)

The head will be ported and flow tested by a friend free of charge, we will flow the head before and after. My friend will calulate the lenght for the intake/exhaust for me

and then will i build everything.





Why is it that they peak at 7k, with 1000k more before hitting 25 m/s piston speed? Cams? Head?

Regards Johan

Sorry, you misread what I was saying, I said they peak "in the 7s" which I mean between 7000 and 7999

And yes you are exactly correct on the piston speeds, by 8K rpm they are up there with formula 1 engines, which on a normal road fuel is getting too high, so revving further just makes things worse.

They WILL make peak power over 8K if you really do a lot of work on them, but its not need to see 230-240bhp or so like you want.

Porting the head is a good idea, but you should just about be ok on standard valves.
The standard head does flow fairly well though, and you are limited by the small bore in terms of how big you can go on the valves before they start getting shrouded by the cylinder wall which reduces flow.

422 cams work quite well to give approaching the power you want and still work ok at 6Krpm+
(the problem if you cam too high on an engine you cant rev far is that you end up with a narrow power band)


TBH, if its for competition use, I would be surprised if in ANY class the clio is the most competitive car you can find! I would seriously consider looking at other options too!

 

[Johan_f]

The car is a trackday only car, will be driven to the closest tracks and traillered if too far away.


Sorry, you misread what I was saying, I said they peak "in the 7s" which I mean between 7000 and 7999

""Aha ok that make sens of course, again sorry for my bad English and tnx for explaining ""



And yes you are exactly correct on the piston speeds, by 8K rpm they are up there with formula 1 engines, which on a normal road fuel is getting too high, so revving further just makes things worse.

"" I will stay around 7600 for the valve train reabillity I will use 98 or maybe E85 as fuel. ""



They WILL make peak power over 8K if you really do a lot of work on them, but its not need to see 230-240bhp or so like you want.

""OK 240 sounds ok ""



Porting the head is a good idea, but you should just about be ok on standard valves.
The standard head does flow fairly well though, and you are limited by the small bore in terms of how big you can go on the valves before they start getting shrouded by the cylinder wall which reduces flow.

"" The concept will be standard size valves, stiffer valve springs and Ti retainers and ported head ""
Will put up the flow figures before and after when done



422 cams work quite well to give approaching the power you want and still work ok at 6Krpm+
(the problem if you cam too high on an engine you cant rev far is that you end up with a narrow power band)

Looks like a nice cam, any other cam options then catcams,


TBH, if its for competition use, I would be surprised if in ANY class the clio is the most competitive car you can find! I would seriously consider looking at other options too!

The car is a project and just to have something to build, i have one spare engine to build and the orginal engine in the car, when the tuned engine is finish i swap engines and rebuild the bottom end of the old one in case


How about the vvt, will i get any problem? it will be nice to have smooth idle and a decent emission value, if possible i will try to have it the Equivalent to MoT
here in Sweden

All big mods on the chassie will be done of season, but for this season it will be standard Engine the chassie already have adjustable dampers and im in the process of building new front brakes from rear 997 brake calipers.

/Johan

 

[Martin.]

For CatCam 422s you'd need to delete the VVT

 

[Chip-mk1]

For CatCam 422s you'd need to delete the VVT

They do it both with and without on the 422 profile I believe.

 

[Chip-mk1]

wont quote you as starts getting messy when my replies are part of your text.

But I have revved one of these engines long term to 7850 on uprated valves, standard springs, standard rocker, standard lifters and standard retainers.

The first thing to fail with be the valves if its lean at all, and can fail even on a decent map, the next big risk is the rocker, and these are expensive to get rid of, but 7850 I have found them reliable at, that was for probably upwards of 1000 minutes of track use revving to the limiter most changes (had 197 cams on MWM timing which puts peak power at peak rpm on that spec with the inlet I was using) and 20K road miles or so too.

There are other cam options but the catcams are by far the most commonly used.

The VVT is generally reliable, although ultimately a solid pulley of course is even more reliable.

422 you may struggle on your emissions, depending on what you rules are, although a friend of mine manages to stay road legal in sweden with some truely crazy modified cars so maybe you just need to find the right tester like we do over here, lol.


Supertech valves are the ones I use, about 400 euros delivered from the states but I dont know what your import taxes are like, but I do know from a friend who lives over there that your government REALLY likes to tax motorists, lol.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Ps

There has been no mention of pistons and rods yet, but for best result you will want higher comp forged pistons and I would get forged rods too at that level.

If you dont get forged rods you certainly want ARP bolts in the standard ones.

 

[Ph1 Tom]

I know Shrick do some camshafts with a good specification.Engine Dynamics cams are good for the money, not far off the Shrick specs I think.

Catcams 422 with VVT are the largest I would fit to keep a good idle and retain some of the power band lower down whilst keeping the limit around the 7500 mark. The 423 peak a bit higher around 8000, they do make more power but lose out a bit below 6000rpm to other cams.

Although I think even with the 421 you have to raise the idle slightly.

Headwork enlarged to the standard gasket will be enough couple with ITBs

 

[Johan_f]

Ps

There has been no mention of pistons and rods yet, but for best result you will want higher comp forged pistons and I would get forged rods too at that level.

If you dont get forged rods you certainly want ARP bolts in the standard ones.

Yes there Will be forged pistols and rods, when my friend are done with my head we will decide about the compression.

 

[Johan_f]

wont quote you as starts getting messy when my replies are part of your text.

But I have revved one of these engines long term to 7850 on uprated valves, standard springs, standard rocker, standard lifters and standard retainers.

The first thing to fail with be the valves if its lean at all, and can fail even on a decent map, the next big risk is the rocker, and these are expensive to get rid of, but 7850 I have found them reliable at, that was for probably upwards of 1000 minutes of track use revving to the limiter most changes (had 197 cams on MWM timing which puts peak power at peak rpm on that spec with the inlet I was using) and 20K road miles or so too.

There are other cam options but the catcams are by far the most commonly used.

The VVT is generally reliable, although ultimately a solid pulley of course is even more reliable.

422 you may struggle on your emissions, depending on what you rules are, although a friend of mine manages to stay road legal in sweden with some truely crazy modified cars so maybe you just need to find the right tester like we do over here, lol.


Supertech valves are the ones I use, about 400 euros delivered from the states but I dont know what your import taxes are like, but I do know from a friend who lives over there that your government REALLY likes to tax motorists, lol.

They love to tax us for everything, I do a lot of travel in my job soo getting things from the state will be no prob, just put everything in my toolbox and send home

Will go for the 422 with vvt and and yes I also have a friend at the right place soo perhaps there will be no prob getting it road legal

 

[Chip-mk1]

Cool stuff

This is my friend's company by the way:
http://www.maxxtuning.se/

He isnt into clios but is a very good engine builder and mapper etc if you do ever stuck for anything

 

[Johan_f]

Cool stuff

This is my friend's company by the way:
http://www.maxxtuning.se/

He isnt into clios but is a very good engine builder and mapper etc if you do ever stuck for anything

Natanael and Samuel Yngvesson are gurus If I can't use standard ecu the ecu I have laying around is a maxxecu

The maxxecu was bought for my Evo but I decided to stay with the plug n play Gems that all ready was in the car and sell it
When I got the built engine back I my car.

 

[Kelv]

They do it both with and without on the 422 profile I believe.

You are correct as I've been looking at the 422 options/specs of late

 

[mark123]

You guys got any info on 422 versus 423 power bands?

The ones I've seen on here using either of those cams get very similar results. The 423 seem to have good torque from 5 to 7.5k rpm same as the 422.

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...lking-here-S&p=7516486&viewfull=1#post7516486
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...Blue-ph1-ITB-2010-track-season-updates/page39
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/show...cup-race-car&p=9204716&viewfull=1#post9204716

 

[Johan_f]

My baby

 

[Chip-mk1]

Looks good

small world you knowing Nathanael too!

He's looking to start selling his ecu in the UK shortly. Have just been talking to him today about it funnily enough with regards to who he should talk to over here.

you will definitely need the ecu, you cannot achieve what you want on the standard one.

 

[Johan_f]

Looks good

small world you knowing Nathanael too!

He's looking to start selling his ecu in the UK shortly. Have just been talking to him today about it funnily enough with regards to who he should talk to over here.

you will definitely need the ecu, you cannot achieve what you want on the standard one.

I don't know him personally, more by reputation and I have talked to him a few times about maxxecu when i needed help.

It's an awsome ecu, will never buy another one again.

Ok then the Maxxecu goes in the Clio with 4 ex temp, oil pressuer sensor and wb and I will use a Nexus tab for displaying engine parameters

 

[Chip-mk1]

Ha ha. Massive overkill but if you have it then you may as well use it.

 

[Johan_f]

Ha ha. Massive overkill but if you have it then you may as well use it.

Exaktly my tought overkill is allways good when it comes to cars and if i cant use the org ecu i have to use something els

 

[Chip-mk1]

Standard ecu is nowhere near suitable for bodies. As it's fuelling algorithm is based around manifold pressure. And getting that to work on bodies at low rpm, especially with cams, would be very difficult and hence expensively time consuming. And even if setup to work "ok" it would never be perfect.

Will you you go to maxx for the mapping?

 

[Johan_f]

Standard ecu is nowhere near suitable for bodies. As it's fuelling algorithm is based around manifold pressure. And getting that to work on bodies at low rpm, especially with cams, would be very difficult and hence expensively time consuming. And even if setup to work "ok" it would never be perfect.

Will you you go to maxx for the mapping?

Have not decided yet were to map it, but Maxx is of course one of the best options. Will probably do the startup map and basic low speed tuning by my self and then take the car to Maxx for fine tuning

But first I need to get the Evo out of the garage It have been there for 3 yrs :-(
Have to wrap my head around Gems to get it to run before I can get it tuned in.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yes it's never good having too many projects on the go at once.

I want to go visit him at some point and see his rollers firsthand. They look awesome in pictures. Looks more like a sauna than a rolling road. Lol.

 

[Johan_f]

Yes it's never good having too many projects on the go at once.

I want to go visit him at some point and see his rollers firsthand. They look awesome in pictures. Looks more like a sauna than a rolling road. Lol.

I have never been there, if u get over here pls pm and I drop by I'm only 2h drive away and if ur lucky I maybe there with my car to map it

 

[Chip-mk1]

I have never been there, if u get over here pls pm and I drop by I'm only 2h drive away and if ur lucky I maybe there with my car to map it

Sadly I can't see it happening anytime soon.
I had provisionally arranged funding for a trip over from a magazine I used to write a lot for but then the editor changed and it never happened.

Want to do gatebil at some time so need to somehow get both into a trip.

 

[Johan_f]

Sadly I can't see it happening anytime soon.
I had provisionally arranged funding for a trip over from a magazine I used to write a lot for but then the editor changed and it never happened.

Want to do gatebil at some time so need to somehow get both into a trip.

Gatebil in Norway is awesome, way better when Gatebil gets to Sweden. I really hope that u can get to Gatebil in Norway or Sweden.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Gatebil in Norway is awesome, way better when Gatebil gets to Sweden. I really hope that u can get to Gatebil in Norway or Sweden.

Its the Norway one I want to do, but that's still a lot closer to Sweden than I ever normally am so a good chance to visit him then.

 

[Johan_f]

Its the Norway one I want to do, but that's still a lot closer to Sweden than I ever normally am so a good chance to visit him then.

Gatebil is about 4-5h drive from Maxxtuning i lived in Norway for 2 yrs before and it's a lovely country

 

[Chip-mk1]

Cool