Oversize valves options

[goran]

since i'm building my engine (hi-comp pistons,forged conrods, 421 cams, itb...)
I would like to fit in some bigger valves with propper head work.
+1.5mm intake and +1mm exhaust

What are my options?
Does anyone make bigger valves for f4r except supertech...
I was looking at sinus valves but i think they have only stock sizes
Ferrea valves too.
Not like I have something against supertech but they are a bit too expensive for what i need them and are a bit overkill for my n/a engine that will rev max at 8100 and optimisticly could go as high 225-230 hp

 

[NorthloopCup]

If I were you I'd be getting the supertech valves going off the spec of your engine mate. They're available off the shelf too.
I'd switch to 422's or 423's as well.

 

[goran]

421 are my choice because i had them in this engine mapped by paul rstunung and gave quite a bit in combination with ported head...if they will not be up to the job i will probably go for 422 ... why do you think 421 are a bad choice?
I looked at engine dynamics the valves are about 600£...and a bit cheaper if i order directly from usa but the shipping to croatia will probably eat that difference in price

 

[NorthloopCup]

421 are my choice because i had them in this engine mapped by paul rstunung and gave quite a bit in combination with ported head...if they will not be up to the job i will probably go for 422 ... why do you think 421 are a bad choice?
I looked at engine dynamics the valves are about 600£...and a bit cheaper if i order directly from usa but the shipping to croatia will probably eat that difference in price

422's and 423's are more suited to high comp. I'm not saying 421's won't work because they will and do, but if your going to the expense of bigger valves you might as well maximise everything else and put another set of cams in there. Otherwise stick with standard sized valves as the performance increase from bigger valves will be minimal.

 

[marinemackay2003]

there is not a lot of space in the 172/182 head to go much bigger unless you start removing material from the chamber walls

 

[goran]

+1.5mm on inlet and +1mm on the exhaust could be fitted i think... the local "headwork" company told me that they could transform some other cars larger valves to fit clio head ... dont know is that a smart thing to do

 

[goran]

i have decided to go for the supertech oversize ones +1.5mm and +1mm ...now the question is... do i have to cnc my wossner pistons (12.8) for the oversize valves.
i will see when they come, but i'm just curious before i get them...
Has anyone done a setup like this?

thanks
goran

 

[Ph1 Tom]

The standard valve size is good for more power than 421 give. They won't be in choke so it's pointless. I'd say even with 423 they would still be a pointless upgrade

 

[goran]

Forgot to mention... i managed to sell my 421 to a friend yesterday (lucky )...so it will be 422 from catcams... that was the main reason for ordering bigger valves... so i'm curious will i have to cnc machine the wossners to accept the 35mm intake valves and exhaust ones.
I'm hoping that someone here runs this setup and could tell me some more...
On the other hand what are 422 to live with? low and high end torque and power? Will it atleast keep the stock engine low end torque?
I will probably stop at 8000rpm i dont want to risk my engine because of 100-200rpm more....

This is so far what is done

Plus gripper 13x59 diff and gripper lsd

I use it for car slalom over here...so any advice would be helpfull

This is a onboard video from last year to give you a clue...

 

[Ph1 Tom]

The 423 make power up to about 7800. Will 422 it will be a bit less. I don't know why you want 8000rpm?!

Again, why the bigger valves? Apart from saying you've got bigger valves there's nothing to gain. If you've got money to burn it would be quicker and less hassle just to actually burn the money.

 

[goran]

So youre saying that if i rev to 8000 with 422 cams with their duration bigger valves will not bring anything?
I dont want to go over 8000 because of the head i will not go solid

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Correct.

So youre saying that if i rev to 8000 with 422 cams with their duration bigger valves will not bring anything?
I dont want to go over 8000 because of the head i will not go solid

Correct, power and torque will be dropping off before then so there's no point at all.

The point at which the valves will be a benefit will be when you have cams that will need 8000+ to make the power and at that point I'd be wanting to go for a dry sump system, longer rods, finger followers etc. You can do solid lifters quite easily using the standard lifters.

If you want to improve things I'd swap to a later F4R head from a 197/200, much better flow. Dependant on what ECU you have you could also take advantage of the continuous VVT rather than the 172/182 system.

 

[goran]

it's not to late, because i can still change my order for normal size supertec valves...
I would like to know what you think about the cam choice 421 or 422? here's my setup
wosners 12.8 and conrods
ported head with ktr ibs 90mm trumpets
i had 421 in when the internals were stock. just the ported head and maped by rstuning remotley , and didnt find them bad at all...
what do the 421 do better than 422 and the other way around... ?

in my races i sometimes drop my rpm to 2500-3000rpm , rare but does happen... now i hope the 422 wouldnt kill that low end torque

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Why not go one step further and fit 423? Yes they lose out a bit below 4000rpm but not a great deal. I've seen a graph for the 422. It was a bit better (125lbft) than 423 below 4k but not as good as 421. It will always be the case I think, the more race spec the cam the more you lose out low down. When I'm on track I'm never under 4000, through bends it usually 4000-4500.

As for peak power the 422 peak around 7400-7500k rpm. 423 about 7800.

Can you fit longer trumpets? I angled mine to give the equivalent of 130mm. That should help you out a little bit.

 

[goran]

Why not go one step further and fit 423? Yes they lose out a bit below 4000rpm but not a great deal. I've seen a graph for the 422. It was a bit better (125lbft) than 423 below 4k but not as good as 421. It will always be the case I think, the more race spec the cam the more you lose out low down. When I'm on track I'm never under 4000, through bends it usually 4000-4500.

As for peak power the 422 peak around 7400-7500k rpm. 423 about 7800.

Can you fit longer trumpets? I angled mine to give the equivalent of 130mm. That should help you out a little bit.

My idea since i'm putting ITBs is to get with 422 or 23 atleast the same low end torque as i had with 421 on standard inlet... could that be possible?

 

[tom172cup]

I'm running oversize super techs. Was a 7 week wait as not many people use them. Roland alsop was the cheapest place I found them

 

[rich83]

Has any one got

Correct.


Correct, power and torque will be dropping off before then so there's no point at all.

The point at which the valves will be a benefit will be when you have cams that will need 8000+ to make the power and at that point I'd be wanting to go for a dry sump system, longer rods, finger followers etc. You can do solid lifters quite easily using the standard lifters.

If you want to improve things I'd swap to a later F4R head from a 197/200, much better flow. Dependant on what ECU you have you could also take advantage of the continuous VVT rather than the 172/182 system.

What size valves does the 197/200 head have, the same?
From what I can see a 172/182 head has 33.5mm inlet and 29mm exhaust? Seems pretty small to me when you compare to a 2.0 Duratec and 2.0 K20, both running 35mm inlet and 30mm exhaust.

Big valves arn't only needed for 8k+ either, big valves done properly will increase power and torque everywhere. My old engine (not Renault) had a BV head with mild cams, but made great power and torque all over compared to those on stock heads. I don't see why the F4R would be any different. As I mention it seems the valve sizes on the stock head are on the small side anyway compared to the leading 2.0 4-pots above (bhp/litre etc). - Now if the head is physically not able to accomodate the BV install well then fair enough of course; such has the bigger valves being overly shrouded or the ports not able to sustain a suitable size ratio to the valves etc?

 

[NorthloopCup]

Has any one got


What size valves does the 197/200 head have, the same?
From what I can see a 172/182 head has 33.5mm inlet and 29mm exhaust? Seems pretty small to me when you compare to a 2.0 Duratec and 2.0 K20, both running 35mm inlet and 30mm exhaust.

Big valves arn't only needed for 8k+ either, big valves done properly will increase power and torque everywhere. My old engine (not Renault) had a BV head with mild cams, but made great power and torque all over compared to those on stock heads. I don't see why the F4R would be any different. As I mention it seems the valve sizes on the stock head are on the small side anyway compared to the leading 2.0 4-pots above (bhp/litre etc). - Now if the head is physically not able to accomodate the BV install well then fair enough of course; such has the bigger valves being overly shrouded or the ports not able to sustain a suitable size ratio to the valves etc?

197/200 shares the same size valve as 172/182. The difference in the 2 being that the 197/200 has a better design combustion chamber and ports. The 172/182 head does suffer relatively badly from the valves being shrouded as well.
As a for instance regards the valve sizes, the R3 Maxi Evo engine found in clio 197 rally cars creates circa 250hp on the original size exhaust valves and a larger diameter inlet.

K20 and duratec are what I'd class as a relatively modern engine as well with a good bore to stroke ratio. They also respond very well to being tuned n/a or boost, but the f4r responds better with boost than n/a. The bore sizes of the f4r don't really lend themselves to having larger valves either as they would be hitting the cylinder walls. The f4r is effectively a jazzed up f7r which was around some time ago.

 

[rich83]

Thanks for the reply, seems there are physcial limitations effecting the implementation then.
Are you sure about the Maxi Evo, the part numbers I have for valves (inlet and exh) both match those also used in R3 Maxi, R3 Access and Cup Racer:
77 11 155 375
77 11 155 377

Cheers

 

[NorthloopCup]

Thanks for the reply, seems there are physcial limitations effecting the implementation then.
Are you sure about the Maxi Evo, the part numbers I have for valves (inlet and exh) both match those also used in R3 Maxi, R3 Access and Cup Racer:
77 11 155 375
77 11 155 377

Cheers

I'm pretty sure the part numbers I've got in the R3 catalogue state maxi evo is different for the inlet mate. I'll double check.

 

[NorthloopCup]

R3 maxi evo inlet valve part number: 77 11 155 377. It's either a stronger valve, or its bigger.
Exhaust valve is: 77 11 155 375 so the same exhaust valve used throughout.

Maxi evo revs to 8400rpm and also has solid lifters along with steel rods and crank.

 

[rich83]

yeah same part number for the valves in all works specs, so must be the same size - but without seeing the stock PN couldn't tell if its say a nice narrow waisted single piece design which could offer some more flow for no extra work to the head.

I'm a sad git, built a table of all the useful PN's across the range below!!! Just need to find someway of populating it with stock items. I'm planning a 230bhp NA build so was looking to see what's likely required based on the works builds. I am hoping I can get away with a stock head and lifters, just use some Accralite pistons and ARP bolts along with cams and standalone etc... R3 manifold is being fitted on the 24th and Dan@SJM is mapping the stock ECU for me on the 28th as the first step towards my goal.

edit: I can't get this to display right!! mods feel free to help
Item Standard Cup Racer R3 Access R3 Maxi (230cv) R3 Maxi Evo (250cv)
Head 77 11 160 276
77 11 162 652 (late?) 77 11 160 276 77 11 160 276 77 11 162 554
Inlet Valve 77 11 155 375 77 11 155 375 77 11 155 375 77 11 155 375
Exhaust Valve 77 11 155 377 77 11 155 377 77 11 155 377 77 11 155 377
Inlet Cam 77 11 160 279 77 11 162 394 77 11 160 675 77 11 162 502
Exhaust Cam 77 11 160 280 77 11 160 280 77 11 160 676 77 11 162 503
Piston 77 11 160 270 (B)
77 11 160 448 (C) 77 11 160 270 (B)
77 11 160 448 (C) 77 11 160 678 77 11 162 507
Rod 77 11 160 272 77 11 160 272 77 11 160 272 77 11 162 506
Rod Bolt 77 11 126 624 82 00 425 460
77 11 126 624 (Option) 82 00 425 460
77 11 126 624 (Option) 77 11 126 624
Crank 77 11 160 269 77 11 160 269 77 11 160 269 77 11 162 505
Flywheel 77 11 162 651 77 11 162 430 (Flywheel)
77 11 162 519 (Flywheel+Assembly) 77 11 162 430 (Flywheel)
77 11 162 519 (Flywheel+Assembly) 77 11 162 519
Inlet Manifold (Lower) 77 11 160 328 77 11 160 328 77 11 160 328 77 11 160 328
Inlet Manifold (Upper) 77 11 160 286 77 11 160 717 77 11 160 717 77 11 160 717
Throttle Body 77 11 160 249 77 11 160 249 77 11 160 249 77 11 160 249
Injectors 77 11 160 281 77 11 160 281 77 11 160 680 77 11 160 680
Airbox 82 00 199 158 (Box)
77 11 160 218 (Hose)
77 11 158 636 (Filter)
77 11 160 217 (Support)
77 01 407 069 (Clip)
77 01 407 070 (Clip) 82 00 199 158 (Box)
77 11 160 218 (Hose)
77 11 158 636 (Filter)
77 11 160 217 (Support)
77 01 407 069 (Clip)
77 01 407 070 (Clip) 82 00 199 158 (Box)
77 11 160 218 (Hose)
77 11 158 636 (Filter)
77 11 160 217 (Support)
77 01 407 069 (Clip)
77 01 407 070 (Clip) 77 11 162 516
77 11 158 636 (Filter)
77 11 162 487
77 11 162 495
77 11 156 647
77 03 083 402 (x2)
77 11 162 494
Exhaust Manifold 77 11 160 130 77 11 160 130 77 11 160 646 (Headers)
77 11 160 647 (Y Pipe) 77 11 160 646 (Headers)
77 11 160 647 (Y Pipe)
Exhaust System 77 11 160 987 (System)
77 11 160 990 (Tail pipe) 77 11 160 987 (System)
77 11 160 990 (Tail pipe) 77 11 160 792 (System)
77 11 162 472 (Tail pipe) 77 11 160 792 (System)
77 11 162 472 (Tail pipe)

 

[NorthloopCup]

I've got genuine R3 maxi pistons, rods and cams mate. I'll also be using a R3 maxi evo airbox.
Head is ported and polished along with port matched manifold, supertech valves (standard size), 197 crank dynamically balanced alongside a lightweight flywheel and pulleys (possibly getting a maxi evo crank though) and I'll be using a 182 manifold. 197 injectors will cope with 230hp and you can also get away with running stock lifters in maxi spec. It's only maxi evo that ran solids due to the 8400rpm. I'll be using a gen90 to run mine which will also run the constantly variable inlet and the coil on plug arrangement.
It's all being built as per the R3 maxi engine build manual as well because I've got it for reference purposes.

Why the choice on the R3 exhaust manifold out of interest? @rich83 ? From what I've seen they're long primary's that join on to long secondary's. Very nice bit of kit, but around £1100 I seem to recall.

 

[rich83]

Nice sounds sweet, who did your head work and have you got any RR graphs? The Maxi pistons sound interesting too, how many rings? Mine will still primarliy be a road car so would envisage I'll be looking for a 3 ring quality piston like an Accralite or something.
I intend to run the Gen128 which I'm told is due soon and run with either Maxi 230 cams (perhaps as above pistons too?) or CatCams. I'll be doing the bulk of this when the cambelt is due in about 6 months so bit of time to wait and plan.

I went R3 manifold for exactly that reason, decent length primaries. It should help to give me some healthy torque figures and it also weighs absolutley nothing too, pretty thin walled stainless and of course no flexi's or pre-cat. - Bit of a leap of faith right now as I haven't see anyone else use one, espepecially on an essentialy bone stock setup as it will be for the next 6 months. Also given it has no flexi's and as I'm not solidly mounting the engine I am having to convert the front flange to a 182 style sprung joint and donut. I have a 182 Milltek sports cat to fit it with which will require a bit of fabrication to get on and then it's straight through Supersprint to the end! It's actually an Aros R3 replica, made in Italy - was £800 shipped to my door including taxes and IBAN charge, which although pricey was just inside my acceptable limit!

 

[NorthloopCup]

Nice sounds sweet, who did your head work and have you got any RR graphs? The Maxi pistons sound interesting too, how many rings? Mine will still primarliy be a road car so would envisage I'll be looking for a 3 ring quality piston like an Accralite or something.
I intend to run the Gen128 which I'm told is due soon and run with either Maxi 230 cams (perhaps as above pistons too?) or CatCams. I'll be doing the bulk of this when the cambelt is due in about 6 months so bit of time to wait and plan.

I went R3 manifold for exactly that reason, decent length primaries. It should help to give me some healthy torque figures and it also weighs absolutley nothing too, pretty thin walled stainless and of course no flexi's or pre-cat. - Bit of a leap of faith right now as I haven't see anyone else use one, espepecially on an essentialy bone stock setup as it will be for the next 6 months. Also given it has no flexi's and as I'm not solidly mounting the engine I am having to convert the front flange to a 182 style sprung joint and donut. I have a 182 Milltek sports cat to fit it with which will require a bit of fabrication to get on and then it's straight through Supersprint to the end! It's actually an Aros R3 replica, made in Italy - was £800 shipped to my door including taxes and IBAN charge, which although pricey was just inside my acceptable limit!

No RR graphs mate as the engines not gone together yet. R3 maxi Pistons are 3 ring as well mate, so good for a certain amount of longevity, although as with every forged piston they won't like constant cold starts.
Cam wise I think only the 403's come close to the maxi cams as well. Not really many options out there for the f4r830 engine unless you start getting stuff custom made = big costs.

I'm assuming yours is actually in a 197/200 then? Mines going in a lightweight 172 cup. This was one of the things that put me off spending money on the R3 exhaust manifold, as I don't know 100% if it'll fit without remodelling the bulkhead/floorpan!

 

[rich83]

Yeah mines a 200 so shouldn't have issues with fitment other than needing to fab up the 182 sprung joint, got all the bits now and it's going into the shop this Monday to be done.

You should be able to get forged pistons to work on a daily driver, after all various vag lumps use forgies as standard. They use Mahle pistons so just need to compare the material properties of a few brands. Fom limited googling it seems that typical materials are 2618 and 4032 alloys, 4032 being a better choice for a daily driver.

 

[ALD]

Bigger valves in a small combustion chamber will mean more valve shrouding unless it's flow tested with combustion chamber modifcations.