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Oil Viscosity, A common misconception!





I read on many forums about 0w and 5w oils being too thin. I will try to explain it without getting over technical and well go from there.

0w-40, 5w-40, 10w-40 and 15w-40 are all the same thickness (14cst) at 100degC.

Centistokes (cst) is the measure of a fluids resistance to flow (viscosity). It is calculated in terms of the time required for a standard quantity of fluid at a certain temperature to flow through a standard orifice. The higher the value, the more viscous the fluid.

As viscosity varies with temperature, the value is meaningless unless accompanied by the temperature at which it is measured. In the case of oils, viscosity is generally reported in centistokes (cst) and usually measured at 40degC and 100degC.

So, all oils that end in 40 (sae 40) are around 14cst thickness at 100degC.

This applies to all oils that end in the same number, all oils that end in 50 (sae 50) are around 18.5cst at 100degC and all oils that end in 60 (sae 60) are around 24cst at 100degC.

With me so far?

Great!

Now, ALL oils are thicker when cold. Confused? Its true and here is a table to illustrate this.

SAE 40 (straight 40)

Temp degC.........................Viscosity (thickness)


0..........................................2579cst
20..........................................473cst
40..........................................135cst
60..........................................52.2cs t
100........................................ 14cst
120.........................................8.8cst

As you will see, there is penty of viscosity at 0degC, in fact many times more than at 100degC and this is the problem especially in cold weather, can the oil flow quick enough to protect vital engine parts at start up. Not really!

So, given that an sae 40 is 14cst at 100degC which is adequate viscosity to protect the engine, and much thicker when cold, how can a 0w oil be too thin?

Well, it cant is the truth.

The clever part (thanks to synthetics) is that thin base oils can be used so that start up viscosity (on say a 5w-40 at 0degC) is reduced to around 800cst and this obviously gives much better flow than a monograde sae 40 (2579cst as quoted above).

So, how does this happen, well as explained at the beginning, its all about temperature, yes a thin base oil is still thicker when cold than at 100degC but the clever stuff (due to synthetics again) is that the chemists are able to build these oils out of molecules that do not thin to less than 14cst at 100degC!

What are the parameters for our recommendations?

Well, we always talk about good cold start protection, by this we mean flow so a 5w will flow better than a 10w and so on. This is why we recommend 5w or 10w as the thickest you want to use except in exceptional circumstances. Flow is critical to protect the engine from wear!

We also talk about oil temps, mods and what the car is used for. This is related to the second number xw-(XX) as there may be issues with oil temperatures causing the oil to be too thin and therefore the possibility of metal to metal contact.

This is difficult to explain but, if for example your oil temp does not exceed 120degC at any time then a good "shear stable" sae 40 is perfectly capable of giving protection.

"Shear stability" is important here because if the oil shears it thins and thats not good!

However, if you are seeing temperatures in excess of 120degC due to mods and track use etc then there is a strong argument to using an sae 50 as it will have more viscosity at these excessive temperatures.

There are trade offs here. Thicker oils cause more friction and therefore more heat and they waste power and affect fuel consumption so its always best to use the thinnest oil (i.e. second number) that you can get away with and still maintain oil pressure.

There is more but this post is too long already so lets keep it to basics.

Cheers
Simon
 
  Renaultsport Clio 182


"Shearing" also causes Cavitation within the Oil.....which is bad. Tends to wear bearings and surfaces, they look as though they have become pitted with dirt but infact its a sign that the oil is Cavitating. Some to look for should you strip and Engine.

Neal
 

dk

  911 GTS Cab


very interesting reading, but are you trying to say that the 0w40 renault put in my car is ok?
 
  Full Fat 182 - Was..


Oilman AKA Simon

This guy really knows his stuff, its his job to!

And thats why since having listened to his good advice and selecting a REAL 100% synthetic my 182 no longer runs lumpy at idle or when cold, its MPG is up as is its acceleration and its noise at speed is greatly reduced!

speak to oilman if you want info on oil and a good deal too! sod the ELF crap and put a proper performance oil in a performance car!

you spend the money on Optimax? yes? so spend the money on probably the most important part of your car...

(The oil i used by the way was Motul Power 300V 5W40 100% Synthetic)
 
  RenaultSport Clio 172 Mk2


So for synthetic oils 5w40 is thinner than 10w40 at cold start temperatures allowing better flow?

But both will be exactly the same viscosity (14cst) at 100degC?

Have I got that right?
 


To summarise then (for thickos like me), what should we be saying to Renault when we take our 182 for a service, when other forum members have been told that the service dept will just shove in whatever is lyeing around?
 


That all sounds well and good, but nearly all engine failures we see happen when the oil temps are high. Hence when dealing with engines like the Impreza and Evo turbo engines not one of the specialists in the UK will dare to put in a 0w oil. Even though on paper it should be ok.

My old Clio Williams was run on 10w/60 Millers CFS for nearly all its life and at over 80k miles was still in superb condition. No scoring on the cam bearings at all and it spent its life being given death on road and dozens of track-days.

Nearly all the specialists I know that deal with high powered turbo engines recommend using 10w/60 or 15w/50. I am prepared to sacrifice a tiny amount of cold weather performance as long as I know the engine is being protected at high temps.

Simon, would you recommend using a 0w/40 in an Impreza lump?
 
  350z & 16v Maxi


I was going to ask the say question as Mark.

Also a lot of people blame a 0w grade for a noisy topend, would you agree with that. I have experienced this, but it may jus be a coincidence.
 


Only talking from my experience, but we have drained out brand new 0w/40 fully synth from an Impreza engine more than once. Sound like a bag of nails with it in.

If were doing a service and know the driver likes to boot it the only oil we put in nowadays is Millers CFS 10w/60 for Evos and Imprezas. In fact apart from RX7s which we run on the 10w/40 CSS semi all petrol turbo cars get the same oil.

I also run the rally Clio on the 10w/60 as with no oil cooler the temps are constantly above 120 degrees when competing or on track.

In the British climate I really dont see any point in a 0w or even a 5w oil, or am I missing something?
 

browno

ClioSport Club Member


Really the main reason that most modern oils are going to 0W/ and 5W/ is down to fuel economy benefits...
Part of many approval specifications (including those for most major OEMS) are fuel economy tests where an engine is run under a prescribed cycle and must better a reference fluid by a certain percentage. Putting a thinner fluid in there means less friction, hence better fuel economy... Having the right additives in there can significantly affect things, but viscosity can give a big step in the right direction...
Therefore thats pretty much the major driver behind the move to thinner grades...
 
  BMW M3


Oil Man, or any other knowledgable person -- Would you say that these oil additives one can buy are a good purchase or a waste of time. My 182 runs on 10w-40, and after the last service i put in STPs rival oil additive (cant remember the name) that looks like a can of beer with ring pull (orange or red can i think). The oil looks really thick and was wondering if and how this would benefit my engine and if so which one you would recommend.

Thanks....Justin
 
  Lionel Richie


Quote: Originally posted by Justin182 on 30 June 2005


Oil Man, or any other knowledgable person -- Would you say that these oil additives one can buy are a good purchase or a waste of time. My 182 runs on 10w-40, and after the last service i put in STPs rival oil additive (cant remember the name) that looks like a can of beer with ring pull (orange or red can i think). The oil looks really thick and was wondering if and how this would benefit my engine and if so which one you would recommend.

Thanks....Justin





itll clog your oil filter nicley, remove it!!!

oh it your engine should be running 5w40
 
  FF 182, K5 GSX-R1000


Simons Responce on another Forum, with similar questions/comments:



Im not advocating that 0w-40 is the solution to all engines as they vary so much due to modding and set-up.

What I am illustrating here is that an sae 40 (be it 0w-40, 5w-40, 10w-40 or 15w-40) is still an sae 40 and at 100degC thins to 14cst.

I am also stating that an sae 40 is good for an oil temp of 120degC and the switch to an sae 50 within this temperature range is wasting power at the wheels.

Sure if you are seeing oil temps above 120degC then an sae 50 is certainly a better choice for a higher level of protection in extreme cases.

With regards to oil pressure, I had a long discussion with a technical expert recently and he made some valid points which were as follows.

Oil pressure is initially defined by engine design, and it doesn’t have to be high.

The mighty Cosworth DFV V-8 which dominated F1 for 15+ years was (and still is) happy with about 45PSI. The Le Mans-winning Bentleys of the 1920s were designed to run on 5-10PSI once the oil was hot.

Obviously, an engine which would always give massive oil pressure would be one built with microscopic bearing clearances, so there would be nowhere for the oil to go! 150PSI, but total seizure in a few seconds!

On the other hand, oil pressure significantly lower than the spec. minimum means that bearings ‘at the end of the queue’ for oil feed get a low flow rate, which is not desirable.

Even so, a good flow rate with a wear-resistant low-viscosity oil will improve cooling and be better for the engine than another 10PSI with a thicker oil. (….and less chance of cavitation problems.

With regards to marketing guff, I think that some of my earlier posts concerning shear stability say it all. Its not guff, its fact. All oils shear (lose viscosity) with use and this means lower protection at higher temperatures. Ive explained this before but its probably on page 1000 by now so Ill post the explanation again.

Viscosity Index Improvers.

An oils viscosity will decrease as the engine temperature rises. Viscosity Index Improvers are added to reduce this thinning. They are a key addative in the production of multigrade oils.

VI Improvers are heat sensitive long chain, high molecular weight polymers that increase the relative viscosity of the oil at high temperatures. They work like springs, coiled at low temperatures and uncoiling at high temperatures. This makes the molecules larger (at high temps) which increases internal resistance within the thinning oil. They in effect "fight back" against the viscosity loss in the oil.

"Shearing"

The long chain molecules in VI Improvers are prone to "shearing" with use which reduces their ability to prevent the oil from losing viscosity. This "shearing" occurs when shear stress ruptures the long chain molecules and converts them to shorter, lower weight molecules. The shorter, lower weight molecules offer less resistance to flow and their ability to maintain viscosity is reduced.

This shearing not only reduces the viscosity of the oil but can cause piston ring sticking (due to deposits), increased oil consumption and increased engine wear.

Like basestock quality, VI Improvers also vary in quality. The best quality ones are normally found in synthetic oils (Group IV - PAO / Group V - Esters) and it is important to understand that the less of these in the oil the better the oil will stay in grade.

Which oils require more VI Improvers?

There are two scenarios where large amounts of these polymers are required as a rule.

Firstly in "wide viscosity" multigrades. By this I mean that the difference between the lower "W" number and the higher number is large for example 5w-50 (diff 45) and 10w-60 (diff 50) are what is termed as "wide viscosity" oils.

Narrow viscosity oils like 0w-30 (diff 30) or 5w-40 (diff 35) require far less VI Improvers and therefore are less prone to "shearing".

Secondly, mineral and hydrocracked (petroleum synthetic oils) require more VI Improvers than proper PAO/Ester (Group IV or V) synthetic oils as they are less thermally stable to begin with and this is due to the non-uniform molecules in petroleum oils as opposed to the uniformity of synthetics built in laboratories by chemists.

It is a fact that some synthetics require little or no VI Improvers to work as a multigrade due to their superior thermal stability.

At the end of the day its your car and your money but without the facts I cant see how you can possibly make an educated decision.

Cheers
Simon
 
  FF 182, K5 GSX-R1000


Above post was from PassionFord.com BTW where a lot of cosworth/RST owners have switched from mobil1/CastrolRS to silkolene pro s.
 
  Peddled device


What would Oilman say is the best oil for a 8,000 mile 172Cup that doesnt have any mods or goes on a track?
 
  clio williams, Ph1 172


I use mobil 1 15w50 in the evo. have used silkolene gti 15 50 before. I go by how quiet they run from cold and just how the engine seems to rev hehe. Both of them seem to be good. expensive oils though and change every 2000 miles :cool:
 
  BMW M3


Quote: Originally posted by Fred2001Dynamic on 01 July 2005


Quote: Originally posted by Justin182 on 30 June 2005


Oil Man, or any other knowledgable person -- Would you say that these oil additives one can buy are a good purchase or a waste of time. My 182 runs on 10w-40, and after the last service i put in STPs rival oil additive (cant remember the name) that looks like a can of beer with ring pull (orange or red can i think). The oil looks really thick and was wondering if and how this would benefit my engine and if so which one you would recommend.

Thanks....Justin






itll clog your oil filter nicley, remove it!!!

oh it your engine should be running 5w40
Bol*ocks... really!!!. If these products clog your oil filter, then why do they say it will benefit your engine and provide better protection. I am sure a company that has been around for 60 years knows what its doing...surely!!!

P.s. Renault put in the 10w/40 in the last service. They6 advised that that was the best for the 182.
 
  308, Fusion


i did a course for work, which included a talk from exxonmobil..

anyway to cut a long story short.. he told us that mobil took a 3 series, put mobil 1 oil in it, changed it every 5000miles, and checked the engines pistions, etc, for the sizes and they never changed, even upto a million miles... bullsh*t i think myself
 
  FF 182, K5 GSX-R1000


Quote: Originally posted by Justin182 on 01 July 2005


Quote: Originally posted by Fred2001Dynamic on 01 July 2005


Quote: Originally posted by Justin182 on 30 June 2005


Oil Man, or any other knowledgable person -- Would you say that these oil additives one can buy are a good purchase or a waste of time. My 182 runs on 10w-40, and after the last service i put in STPs rival oil additive (cant remember the name) that looks like a can of beer with ring pull (orange or red can i think). The oil looks really thick and was wondering if and how this would benefit my engine and if so which one you would recommend.

Thanks....Justin






itll clog your oil filter nicley, remove it!!!

oh it your engine should be running 5w40
Bol*ocks... really!!!. If these products clog your oil filter, then why do they say it will benefit your engine and provide better protection. I am sure a company that has been around for 60 years knows what its doing...surely!!!

P.s. Renault put in the 10w/40 in the last service. They6 advised that that was the best for the 182.









Justin, IMO you are much better off buying a top grade oil in the first place than wasting money on that additive $%&^

My general opinion of Renault dealers are that they dont know their arse from their elbow with RS cars. Im sure lots will agree, with the odd exception.
 


Quote: Originally posted by Mark@Ritchspeed on 30 June 2005

That all sounds well and good, but nearly all engine failures we see happen when the oil temps are high. Hence when dealing with engines like the Impreza and Evo turbo engines not one of the specialists in the UK will dare to put in a 0w oil. Even though on paper it should be ok.

My old Clio Williams was run on 10w/60 Millers CFS for nearly all its life and at over 80k miles was still in superb condition. No scoring on the cam bearings at all and it spent its life being given death on road and dozens of track-days.

Nearly all the specialists I know that deal with high powered turbo engines recommend using 10w/60 or 15w/50. I am prepared to sacrifice a tiny amount of cold weather performance as long as I know the engine is being protected at high temps.

Simon, would you recommend using a 0w/40 in an Impreza lump?


TBH, Suabaru recommend 5w-30 and 5w-40 for later models 2000 onwards and we recommend a fully synthetic 5w-40 in these cases.

Earlier models tend to prefer 10w-40 or 10w-50.

Depending on the state of modification, there may be a case for thicker oils but if your oil temps dont exceed 120degC than a proper synthetic 5w-40 is the best bet. Anything thicker will waste power, effect fuel economy and cause friction/heat leading to premature wear.

Most modern engines are happy with 10-14cst at 100degC and an sae 40 is 14cst at 100dgC. An sae 60 is in fact 24cst at 100degC, as thick as some gear oils. This causes oil drag and the risk of cavitation.

Cheers

Simon
 
  2012 WRX Waggon


Quote: Originally posted by oilman on 05 July 2005


Quote: Originally posted by visceral on 29 June 2005

Oilman - what oil do you recommend for the renesis engine;)
What I use in mine of course! 5w-30

Cheers

Simon
Picking my winning blue 192 up this Friday:D
 
  172 ph1 ASBO SLAYER


i use millers oils in all my cars, where i work (we use commercial high power turbocharged diesel engines, in a high stress application. from varying engine suppliers. cummins, volvo & gardiner) we changed oil supplier to millers 8 years ago, and we have not had an engine fail since due to excess wear!

and thats good enough for me!
 
  RS4


and one more question for all the thickos out there including me, seeing as the engine in my 1.2 16v:oops: doesnt get heated more than 120dg wot would be the best oil for it be then
 


Hi oilman.

Do you know anything about the Ford formula S oil (fully synthetic 5w 40)??

I can get it really cheap and was going to use in in my 182. I have heard it is actually valvoline oil re-branded??

[Edited by cupra on 7/6/2005 6:20:58 PM]
 
  Skoda Fabia vRS


it probably is, valvoline oil is very cheap stuff plus they have links with Ford

Silkolene Pro S for me.......
 
  Lionel Richie


Quote: Originally posted by Justin182 on 01 July 2005


Quote: Originally posted by Fred2001Dynamic on 01 July 2005


Quote: Originally posted by Justin182 on 30 June 2005


Oil Man, or any other knowledgable person -- Would you say that these oil additives one can buy are a good purchase or a waste of time. My 182 runs on 10w-40, and after the last service i put in STPs rival oil additive (cant remember the name) that looks like a can of beer with ring pull (orange or red can i think). The oil looks really thick and was wondering if and how this would benefit my engine and if so which one you would recommend.

Thanks....Justin






itll clog your oil filter nicley, remove it!!!

oh it your engine should be running 5w40
Bol*ocks... really!!!. If these products clog your oil filter, then why do they say it will benefit your engine and provide better protection. I am sure a company that has been around for 60 years knows what its doing...surely!!!

P.s. Renault put in the 10w/40 in the last service. They6 advised that that was the best for the 182.
Well Renault were wrong, your car should have 5W40 fully synthetic in (you can use 10W40 semi, but i wouldnt!!!!!!)

where do you see addatives advertised most????? infomercials, ie, they feed you a load of bullsh*t, you buy it, they make money!!!

NO NEED AT ALL in a sub 100K mile engine for an addative

ive seen STP + Slick 50 raise temps by 20deg = not a good thing

but hey its your car, go ahead put addatives in and f**k it reet up, your choice



speak to any "alleged expert" on here, they tell you how it is

BTW, expert, "X" is an unknown quantity, and a "spurt" is a drip under pressure
 


It shouldnt do in an engine thats in a decent condition as it flows a lot better than thicker oils.

Cheers

Simon
 


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