Bleeding brakes

[Greg.w]

Hi all,

So one of the last jobs to do on my 182 track car build is bleeding the brakes. I have had all the calipers off for a rebuild, and replaced the rear brake lines from under the passenger seat area to the calipers. It's been sitting like this for a couple of months.

My concern is that the abs pump will have air in it and I don't have clip or rs tuner to activate it. I have a decent diagnostic laptop but not sure that will activate the pump. The setting is there for other vehicles but not sure if it'll work on the clio?

I also have Ate typ200 brake fluid that I don't want to waste.

Will the normal bleeding process work for me? Ie pumping the brake pedal and manually bleeding at each corner?

Any advice appreciated, plan is to do it on Saturday.

Thanks
Greg

 

[Mr Underhill]

I managed without clip on my first rebuild. But it took a lot of brake fluid. I was using Castrol SRF React at the time. That was expensive 🤦🏻‍♂️

Whilst I now close the lines with brass blanking plugs when doing brake work, I had the calipers off mine for ages. The fluid had pretty much stopped flowing. I replaced every line except the main pipes running through the centre.

I remember running it up and down a gravel path the try and lock the brakes up to get the last bit of air out. It was a chew but certainly doable. The missus wasn’t happy either as she was the one pumping the pedals 😂 The first time she got in she was pumping the clutch. “Pump the f**king brake will you” I am she said. The rest is history.

You might get lucky 🍀 😊

Car Builder Solutions are worth a visit for the blanking unions going forward.

 

[Greg.w]

I managed without clip on my first rebuild. But it took a lot of brake fluid. I was using Castrol SRF React at the time. That was expensive 🤦🏻‍♂️

Whilst I now close the lines with brass blanking plugs when doing brake work, I had the calipers off mine for ages. The fluid had pretty much stopped flowing. I replaced every line except the main pipes running through the centre.

I remember running it up and down a gravel path the try and lock the brakes up to get the last bit of air out. It was a chew but certainly doable. The missus wasn’t happy either as she was the one pumping the pedals 😂 The first time she got in she was pumping the clutch. “Pump the f**king brake will you” I am she said. The rest is history.

You might get lucky 🍀 😊

Car Builder Solutions are worth a visit for the blanking unions going forward.

Thanks for the input. I don't really want to waste £60 to £80 worth of brake fluid so I think I'm going to nip to Halfords and pick up some cheap dot 4 stuff first. It's about £20 for 5 litres. Once I get a good pedal I'll bleed the good stuff through and should be good.

I was going to get a pressure bleeder too, the £20 Eezibleed one. Good idea or waste of time?

Ta

 

[G. Brzęczyszczykiewicz]

I was going to get a pressure bleeder too, the £20 Eezibleed one. Good idea or waste of time?

I bought one of those recently and it's an absolute game changer. It makes bleeding brakes ridiculously easy and I don't think I've managed to get a firmer pedal even manually bleeding them.

I would advise getting a syringe though as it fills the reservoir completely, so some fluid needs to be removed before putting the cap back on, unless you want brake fluid everywhere 👍🏻

 

[R3k1355]

I was going to get a pressure bleeder too, the £20 Eezibleed one. Good idea or waste of time?

I found this style one to be best. Certainly for some ABS units, you want to keep the pressure at 10-12psi when bleeding, to properly get all the air out.

Also, get some speed bleeders. That way you don't need to get the Mrs involved when you want to 2-man bleed the brakes.

 

[Greg.w]

Brilliant thanks guys. I'll grab a syringe too.

What's a speed bleeder @R3k1355 ? Im old school and normally just use an old bottle and hose 🤣

 

[R3k1355]

Brilliant thanks guys. I'll grab a syringe too.

What's a speed bleeder @R3k1355 ? Im old school and normally just use an old bottle and hose 🤣

These, brilliant upgrade IMO.

I'm not sure on the exact thread you will need tho.

Goodridge Speed Bleeder

The Goodridge 'Speed Bleeder' is the perfect solution for eliminating the tedious, time consuming and repetitive job of bleeding brake systems, by simply replacing the existing bleed nipples.Their unique design incorporates a one way valve preventing air entering back into the system and...

www.demon-tweeks.com

 

[JamesBryan]

Go to Euro Car Parts and get the 5L bottle of Pagid fluid and run that through first.

A pressure bleeder will help, but you could loosen all the bleed nipples and just let it gravity bleed for a few hours.

 

[JamesBryan]

These, brilliant upgrade IMO.

I'm not sure on the exact thread you will need tho.

Goodridge Speed Bleeder

The Goodridge 'Speed Bleeder' is the perfect solution for eliminating the tedious, time consuming and repetitive job of bleeding brake systems, by simply replacing the existing bleed nipples.Their unique design incorporates a one way valve preventing air entering back into the system and...

www.demon-tweeks.com

M7 x 1.00 for 172/182.

 

[Greg.w]

Go to Euro Car Parts and get the 5L bottle of Pagid fluid and run that through first.

A pressure bleeder will help, but you could loosen all the bleed nipples and just let it gravity bleed for a few hours.

Yep that's the plan. Halford comma stuff is 20 quid for 5 litres so about half the price of ecp.

 

[Mr Underhill]

Thanks for the input. I don't really want to waste £60 to £80 worth of brake fluid so I think I'm going to nip to Halfords and pick up some cheap dot 4 stuff first. It's about £20 for 5 litres. Once I get a good pedal I'll bleed the good stuff through and should be good.

I was going to get a pressure bleeder too, the £20 Eezibleed one. Good idea or waste of time?

Ta

Eezibleed is what I use. A good bit of kit for the price.

 

[Greg.w]

Anyone know if generic diagnostics will activate the abs pump too? Just out of curiosity. Everyone talks about clip and rs tuner but no mention of normal diagnostics.

It's a decent set up not just a scanner. Similar to snap on tool etc.

Ta

 

[JamesBryan]

Anyone know if generic diagnostics will activate the abs pump too? Just out of curiosity. Everyone talks about clip and rs tuner but no mention of normal diagnostics.

It's a decent set up not just a scanner. Similar to snap on tool etc.

Ta

Worth a try.

 

[Martin_172]

I would advise getting a syringe though as it fills the reservoir completely, so some fluid needs to be removed before putting the cap back on, unless you want brake fluid everywhere 👍🏻

Doesn't that only happen if you release the pressure while still connected to the reservoir? I disconnect the connector then release the pressure and that way you don't fill the res to the top.


to the OP, I built mine from dry and I flushed 5 litres of fluid thru and still didn't have a single bit of a pedal! activated it via RSTuner and I had a pedal within 1 litre off fluid!

 

[G. Brzęczyszczykiewicz]

Doesn't that only happen if you release the pressure while still connected to the reservoir? I disconnect the connector then release the pressure and that way you don't fill the res to the top.

I'm not sure to be honest, I've only ever used it once and only witnessed someone using one once before that. Both times the reservoir was brimmed.

I feel like if you did anything other than disconnect the air line from the tyre first you'd end up with brake fluid everywhere as there'd still be 20psi trying to force it out of any available opening.

 

[Brigsy]

Ive bled my trophy from totally dry and no issues bled up straight away without activating abs, but had to put 4ltrs through another renault and had to activate the abs solenoids a few times to get a good pedal.

Luck of the draw, suck it and see i guess. Buy a pressure bleeder if you dont already have one.

 

[RichValver]

I found if you bleed it with the engine running you should get all the air out OK. Had a mare after changing my rear beam until I was told to leave it running

 

[Greg.w]

I found if you bleed it with the engine running you should get all the air out OK. Had a mare after changing my rear beam until I was told to leave it running

Oh right, never heard that before. Any reason that works rather than with the engine off?

 

[Martin_172]

I'm not sure to be honest, I've only ever used it once and only witnessed someone using one once before that. Both times the reservoir was brimmed.

I feel like if you did anything other than disconnect the air line from the tyre first you'd end up with brake fluid everywhere as there'd still be 20psi trying to force it out of any available opening.

oh i don't have one that connects to a tyre, I've got the one that you pressurise yourself, its got a valve on it so when you disconnect the hose from the reservoir cap, no more fluid is coming out, so you end up with your reservoir at the same level as it was before you started, just with fresh fluid!

 

[Mr Underhill]

I found if you bleed it with the engine running you should get all the air out OK. Had a mare after changing my rear beam until I was told to leave it running

I found that firing up the engine after bleeding the system with the engine off changed the pedal feel as well. But logically, starting up triggers various components in a braking system, especially with ABS/ESP, causing everything to move again. If that make sense?

From the manual:

The ESP system consists of: ● a brake servo assembly, ● a pump unit consisting of:
● a hydraulic pump,
● a pressure modulation unit (twelve solenoid valves), ● a computer,
● a pressure sensor,
● a steering wheel angle sensor,
● a combined yaw speed and lateral acceleration sensor, ● four wheel speed sensors,
● an ESP disconnection push-button.

So any remaining air, especially on a car where the system has been left to run dry, will reveal itself as everything begins to move again.

That's why I now use brass unions to block off pipe work to reduce fluid loss, and minimise the risk of air getting into the system.

I guess it’s all about creating that perfect vacuum.

That's my logic, anyway.

 

[clio_ross]

Anyone know if generic diagnostics will activate the abs pump too? Just out of curiosity. Everyone talks about clip and rs tuner but no mention of normal diagnostics.

It's a decent set up not just a scanner. Similar to snap on tool etc.

Ta

Whilst I haven’t used it when bleeding the brakes on my 172 yet, I have checked and my icarsoft CR Max diagnostic machine will let you activate the abs pump via the service menu, so I imagine other diagnostic machines with service functionality would be able to do the same.

 

[aldo_87]

I'm not sure to be honest, I've only ever used it once and only witnessed someone using one once before that. Both times the reservoir was brimmed.

I feel like if you did anything other than disconnect the air line from the tyre first you'd end up with brake fluid everywhere as there'd still be 20psi trying to force it out of any available opening.

Usually that happens if you've got a small air leak at the res whilst bleeding under pressure, or you slacken the temporary cap on the res whilst under pressure. If you vent the air gap in the res whilst under pressure, your pressure bleeder will just fill it with fluid.

 

[Gus]

Getting a hard brake pedal from letting the fluid drain out can be a fricking nightmare. You will go through plenty of brake fluid so buy some cheap s**t brake fluid until you have a rock hard pedal.

I had this when i stupidly let all my brake fluid drain.

Check you dont have any leaks.

What I would do to start with is get down to halfords and buy an Easibleed kit. Easibleed will pressure bleed your system and requires a wheel with 20 psi so make sure you have a way of measuring the PSI and inflating a tyre.

Whilst at halfords buy the cheap 5L brake fluid (i forget what DOT it is) as you will go through a lot of fluid. obviously once you are happy you can use decent fluid.

Pressure bleed all the calipers, bleed them all again - go through about 2L of fluid.

Run your RS TUner or clip to activate the abs module. bleed at the same time with the eezibleeder.

Just keep bleeding, dont reuse any brake fluid you bleed out. You will go through a lot of fluid. It took me 4-5L before my pedal was rock solid.

Just keep at it. Set aside a couple of hours maybe a whole day to do it. It will work.

The clip side is pretty easy and obvious to use , pm me if you have any issues .

 

[Gus]

Another thing worth considering if you have made custom brake lines is - do you have any high points in the lines where air could gather? I'm not sure if pressure bleeding moves the brake fluid faster than an air bubble can move back to the high point if you see what I mean.

 

[G. Brzęczyszczykiewicz]

One small addition, make sure your battery is in good condition, or hook it up to a charger while you're activating the ABS. Depending on how many times you have to repeat the procedure you can drain the battery pretty quickly.

 

[Greg.w]

So tackled this today. Went OK but did take a while.

Got the eezybleed kit which was brilliant to be fair.

Little issue at the start with brake fluid pissing out of both rear calipers. Turns out the bleed nipples supplied by big redd were too short and not sealing. Local motor factors sorted me out for a couple of quid.

It's the icarsoft diagnostic system I have, and there is a function for each corner to bleed the brakes. You can choose each corner separately and it runs the pump for around 10 seconds. Worked perfect. Bled the brakes with only about a litre and a half of fluid so guessing I was lucky and the system wasn't as empty as I suspected! Repeated all 4 corners a load of times until no more air was coming out.

Not been for a drive yet but it's got a decent pedal just now. Will take it a little drive once I sort out the starting issues and hopefully it's all good!

Thanks for everyone's input

 

[Greg.w]

So took her out for her first drive tonight since I've done a load of track prep.

Brake pedal is spongy to say the least. Can pump it and it's much better, but still spongy and a fair bit of travel.

Abs light came on too so assume I've got air in there? Would that cause the abs light to come on?

Need to go back to the drawing board and so another load of bleeding.

 

[Mr Underhill]

So took her out for her first drive tonight since I've done a load of track prep.

Brake pedal is spongy to say the least. Can pump it and it's much better, but still spongy and a fair bit of travel.

Abs light came on too so assume I've got air in there? Would that cause the abs light to come on?

Need to go back to the drawing board and so another load of bleeding.

See if you can lock the brakes up to engage the ABS. Gravel car park, somewhere like that. Then just keep bleeding as there’s still air in there.

ABS light could be a dodgy or dirty wheel sensor, small crack/chip/rust in ABS rings, steering angle sensor, although ESP and Serve light usually comes on as well.

The joys of building a track car eh!

 

[JamesBryan]

When you bled with the diagnostic to purge the system, did you pump the pedal at the same time to get the system above 15bar/200psi?

 

[Mr Underhill]

Also check the Yaw Rate Sensor. I’ve seen those get taken out of track cars to “save weight”. Might be missing, faulty or you’ve unplugged it 🤷🏻‍♂️ Worth checking.

 

[Greg.w]

When you bled with the diagnostic to purge the system, did you pump the pedal at the same time to get the system above 15bar/200psi?

No I just used the pressure from the eezibleed. Am I supposed to pump the brake pedal at the same time?

 

[Greg.w]

Also check the Yaw Rate Sensor. I’ve seen those get taken out of track cars to “save weight”. Might be missing, faulty or you’ve unplugged it 🤷🏻‍♂️ Worth checking.

Ill have a check but pretty sure it's still fitted. All abs rings are good as far as I'm aware, new disks and pads all round, new abs rings at the back, all calipers rebuilt. The abs light was off most of the drive but did come on near the end. Assumed air in the system would cause it maybe?

 

[JamesBryan]

No I just used the pressure from the eezibleed. Am I supposed to pump the brake pedal at the same time?

It will help yeah.

 

[Brigsy]

Also check the Yaw Rate Sensor. I’ve seen those get taken out of track cars to “save weight”. Might be missing, faulty or you’ve unplugged it 🤷🏻‍♂️ Worth checking.

I have yaw sensor unplugged on my trophy to disable asr and have turned off the asr light on the dash with clip. Abs light extinguishes as normal.

 

[Mr Underhill]

I have yaw sensor unplugged on my trophy to disable asr and have turned off the asr light on the dash with clip. Abs light extinguishes as normal.

I mentioned this, Jon, because it plays a role in the functioning of the Anti-lock Braking System (ABS).

My first circuit car build had to go to a 'specialist' as I couldn't get the ABS lights to go off. New ABS sensors, ABS rings, and two angle sensors later, it came back no better.

A few days later, while going around Cadwell, I could hear a knocking sound from behind the dash. I pulled into the pits and noticed the wire from the Yaw sensor running up behind the dash. When I was painting the floor, I had tied it up behind there out of the way.

The lights immediately went out when I put it back where it belonged. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Now, I can be excused as I'm a relative novice when it comes to mechanical stuff, but the specialist has no excuse. 😂

 

[R3k1355]

Yea I had all sorts of problems with a dodgy yaw sensor not long ago.

If you have ABS in the car, you need all the system to be there and functioning, otherwise you're just causing yourself grief.

 

[Brigsy]

I mentioned this, Jon, because it plays a role in the functioning of the Anti-lock Braking System (ABS).

My first circuit car build had to go to a 'specialist' as I couldn't get the ABS lights to go off. New ABS sensors, ABS rings, and two angle sensors later, it came back no better.

A few days later, while going around Cadwell, I could hear a knocking sound from behind the dash. I pulled into the pits and noticed the wire from the Yaw sensor running up behind the dash. When I was painting the floor, I had tied it up behind there out of the way.

The lights immediately went out when I put it back where it belonged. 🤦🏻‍♂️

Now, I can be excused as I'm a relative novice when it comes to mechanical stuff, but the specialist has no excuse. 😂

Same specialist that done my yellow meg by any chance

Was it the esp light on the dash? the abs/non esp cars dont even have the yaw sensor. Mines disconnected and esp button removed and light turned off on dash, abs light works as it should and no faults stored. Had no choice getting rid as was never going to work with standalone engine ecu.

I cant remember if i done any other reprogramming in the background as its been ages since i done it.

 

[Mr Underhill]

Same specialist that done my yellow meg by any chance

I couldn't possibly say his name but he's not a million miles away from us.

Was it the esp light on the dash? the abs/non esp cars dont even have the yaw sensor. Mines disconnected and esp button removed and light turned off on dash, abs light works as it should and no faults stored. Had no choice getting rid as was never going to work with standalone engine ecu.

Yeah had both ESP/ABS lights on. The ABS light will have come on because the giro in the sensor couldn't figure out what the hell was going on.