197 engine and box into 172

[Chip-mk1]

I want to use a 197 bottom end with a 172 head (which I known isn't as good as the 197 head) in a mk2 Clio.

The reason I want to do it is nothing to do with power it's for the tidier aux belt setup when running no power steering but WITH aircon.

I know it's a big job and that no one will feel it's worthwhile just for a different belt setup but that's my reason and I'm quite happy if it's a lot of work.

Has anyone on here actually done a 197 swap?
seen a 225 but not sure how similar the boxes are in terms of external dimensions and not a lot of details were given about that from what I remember anyway.

i am aware I need new mounts probably (piece of cake for me tbh) and I know I need new shafts ( expensive but not a drama) but does anyone know details about how well it will physically fit in the hole?


I can't use the 172 box as it won't go on the 197 engine. Nowhere close in fact, it's quite surprising how different they actually are!


will run aftermarket management for the spark and fuelling and stick with a 172 dephasor so it's not an issue with wiring or that the crank sensor offset is different.

 

[botfch]

As I understand it, its the box your gonna have problems fitting in the space may require some cutting, there's a pic somewhere will try and find it.

A

 

[AlexW]

This thread may be of some use ref gearbox. I know its Megane 225.
http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?740762-Crusty-s-Ph2-172-225-engine-gearbox-project

Watching with intrest as it sounds like it could be a good project, but you do have a few on the go lol!

 

[welshname]

Will keep my eye on this. Presume it's for the RB track car to keep it nice and daily driver whilst allowing some easier maintenance and shorter ratio's for track?

Interesting idea though, although aren't the boxes supposed to be worse than the 172 boxes for failing?

 

[Dan@SJM]

Yeh I wouldn't want a 197 box lol

 

[Daniel]

Fred (iirc) always said the box fouls massively on the chassis leg, meaning lots of fabrication?

Flan cut a load about when he fitted 20VT running gear didn't he? I can't remember the title of his thread though.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Try this guy chip. Here's a thread: http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?749214-Calling-all-wiring-experts-Help-needed Grats

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yeah it's for the RB I would like to do it.

Weve converted to EPAS but there isnt a decent belt wrap without the pas pump so you end up having an idler in place, cup setup works great with no pas but then no aircon so that's not an option.

197 boxes aren't that bad. I don't mind needing a new box every 60k and anyway it's got less weight to haul about. And they are a miles better change and fantastic ratios.

 

[Chip-mk1]

As I understand it, its the box your gonna have problems fitting in the space may require some cutting, there's a pic somewhere will try and find it.

A

Yeah engine is fine it's box that is the issue.

 

[Dan@SJM]

Yeah it's for the RB I would like to do it.

Weve converted to EPAS but there isnt a decent belt wrap without the pas pump so you end up having an idler in place, cup setup works great with no pas but then no aircon so that's not an option.

197 boxes aren't that bad. I don't mind needing a new box every 60k and anyway it's got less weight to haul about. And they are a miles better change and fantastic ratios.

Every 60k? Pmsl! You'd be lucky to see 15 with the abuse that'll get.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Every 60k? Pmsl! You'd be lucky to see 15 with the abuse that'll get.

Nah. Lesley drives it pretty steady to work and back.
I agree the boxes are by no means indestructible but they are lovely to use and tbh I don't really care if I need to rebuild it after 15k as that's a couple of years these days now she is so close to her work and 15 would be unlucky.

 

[Dan@SJM]

I'll put money on it had a 200 in the other week with 6k on the clock and the box was hanging out of it.

 

[Jaff.]

thought it needed bits cut out of the subframe?

 

[Grats]

Hi Chip - yea I've put in a 197 without having to cut the leg, I am using the sadev box though so not sure if its any shorter, will measure it if you want. I used the Pure Motorsport pulley's as they are much narrower (4px) rather than the standard 197 being 7 or 8, which gives about 5 to 8mm either side. Not sure if any of their pulley's will fit on the aircon pump though. I am happy to drop to a 4px as like you have electric PAS so the belt not running anything critical. Think you also need to use hydraulic clutch or is just that the sadev box? With all this work why not use the 197 head?? Mines going for a MOT next wk so nearly there - at last.

 

[Grats]

sorry Chip forgot to say as part of the new engine mount, I did have to cut some of the old one off, but not cutting the leg.

 

[Chip-mk1]

THanks mate but not really any use as it's the gearbox my questions are about and you don't have it. Lol.

Engine mount is fine. Will be on 172 stuff there as it bolts to head anyway.

 

[Grats]

yea OK - I know that but wasn't sure if the Sadev box was the same length as the Clio 197 box but good look with the build.

 

[Chip-mk1]

So. Turns out it just bolts straight in.

Decided as wasn't getting a straight answer and one my clios hasn't got an engine at the moment I may as well try.

So me and mike woodford just bolted a spare 197 engine and box into it.


Goes straight in.

There are a couple of very tiny tweaks i would like to do for a bit more clearance but it is basically just a straight fit.

Quite a cheap way to get a six speed box into a Clio 172.


Will need custom shafts and I need to make a dogbone but that's all trivial stuff.


Standard 172 management won't run it due to different crank sensor i suspect but I will be on aftermarket anyway.

 

[George182]

Great stuff!

Does this potentially mean that the meg r26 engine and box will fit? (Fairly similar aren't they?)

 

[Chip-mk1]

Great stuff!

Does this potentially mean that the meg r26 engine and box will fit? (Fairly similar aren't they?)

Yeah shouldn't be a drama I would think although I've not personally tried yet and the box might be very slightly different external dimensions.

 

[Andyrg@ ClioTurbo]

The ndo box goes in fine. I'd go this route chip over a 197 box

 

[Chip-mk1]

The ndo box goes in fine. I'd go this route chip over a 197 box

Are the NDO and 197 the same bellhousing though, or do I then have to get a 225 engine to build the 197 internals into for it to bolt up?

 

[Dan@SJM]

Yes it's the same bellhousing

 

[Chip-mk1]

Cool, will keep an eye out for an R26 box then i guess, as that way at least I dont have to buy a quaiffe like the current one.

Although it will depend on ratios too, the 197 ratios I think would be epic for this car, just very slightly closer than in a 197 due to smaller tyres, and that I think would be about perfect for her spec, I suspect the turbo boxes will be too tall geared for us, although I guess having a cruising gear would be a bonus.

As the shafts and linkage etc is all easily interchangable between the two I could always use standard 197 box to begin with and not bother shelling out for a diff yet and then either get a spare 197 box to diff and swap in (so I then still have a spare just in case) or get an R26 box if I decide the ratios are ok. Would always want to have a spare box in stock anyway just in case. Redundancy is the ultimate form of reliability!

 

[Dan@SJM]

It's a shame, you want the 225/r26 box strength but the 197 ratios. I wonder if you can build the 197 box with the 225 bearings/syncros.

 

[MikeLYR27]

Wont a meg box have longer ratios though which would hamper acceleration? To be honest youll be ok with a 197 box. Think this will be a cracker of a project!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Wont a meg box have longer ratios though which would hamper acceleration? To be honest youll be ok with a 197 box. Think this will be a cracker of a project!

Yes I think the Meg box will end up too tall geared.

Will have to get some specific figures at some point, but its a very long term project so in no rush.
At least now I know its possible though, so can start planning, didnt want to do that before I knew it would go in the hole ok.

 

[MikeLYR27]

I've always thought a 197 engine + 6 speed would be great in a 182. I'll be keeping an eye on this for sure Will it run vvt mate?

 

[Chip-mk1]

I've always thought a 197 engine + 6 speed would be great in a 182. I'll be keeping an eye on this for sure Will it run vvt mate?

I will probably re-use the existing cams from the 182 and run the 182 dephasor solenoid rather than the fully variable 197 one.

But it depends what management I end up, potentially I might stick with the 197 dephasor if using management that is very capable at dealing with it properly, but I believe in my case the gains from doing so arent going to be huge so its not a priority.

 

[Martin.]

Very interesting.

Could always just get a meg engine to go with a meg box ;P

That would be a conversion I'd love to do! Not cheap though I bet.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Very interesting.

Could always just get a meg engine to go with a meg box ;P

That would be a conversion I'd love to do! Not cheap though I bet.

Meg engined would be too low comp and the RS2 isnt a direct fit to the head.

We arent interested at this stage in turboing this car, got other clios for that.

 

[Goodj]

You know I'm a great advocae of air-con, but if you're stripping out PAS and making another track hack....why are you keeping the chiller?

Also, think of the 0.1% HP!!!!

 

[Chip-mk1]

You know I'm a great advocae of air-con, but if you're stripping out PAS and making another track hack....why are you keeping the chiller?

Also, think of the 0.1% HP!!!!

Its not a track hack, its a road car first and an occasional (ok sometimes 20 trackdays in a year, but its still not its main purpose, lol) trackday use car, and its not being stripped of PAS, just upgraded to the more modern EPAS setup with a variable assistance dial so that it can be nice and soft for when she is manouvering around the work carpark and then set firmer if we are going round the nurburgring.
The whole idea of this car, is that I am trying to make it better for track whilst never at any point compromising it on the road, its VERY much a road car first and a track car second.

I just want to make a better renaultsport than renault did, and the moment you lose aircon, you have failed to do that IMHO as the whole point is they are supposed to be good all rounders!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Clio 197 box might actually be slightly too low geared.

Will be 4500rpm@80mph

Trying to decide if thats acceptable or not, will be amazing on track for sure, but might compromise it on the road.

Its about 10% less mph for the same rpm as it does currently.

 

[Andrewclio]

Just out of curiosity chip would the 197 engine fit whilst using cup racer mounts? Or is the block completely different? Also would a cup racer alternator setup fit on it too?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Just out of curiosity chip would the 197 engine fit whilst using cup racer mounts? Or is the block completely different? Also would a cup racer alternator setup fit on it too?

No idea, I have never had a cup racer.

 

[Andrewclio]

No idea, I have never had a cup racer.

Ok no worries, its the front mount underneath the alternator on cup racer which is the one I'm wondering about, weather bolt spacing on the block is the same on the 197 block as the 172

 

[Chip-mk1]

Ok no worries, its the front mount underneath the alternator on cup racer which is the one I'm wondering about, weather bolt spacing on the block is the same on the 197 block as the 172

Definately not the same spacing there mate.

 

[matthewstearn]

Sorry for treading old ground but from what i have read i didnt think the megane 225 engine and box fitted without some major mods but are you guys saying that they slot in easy just like the 197 engine and box? On a side note if you dont mind me asking, on a turbo application is the 197 box superior as from what i understand it is the only real weak point?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Haven't tried 225 engine and box but seems unlikely it's a lot bigger.

Most common issue I'm aware of with the boxes is dead Synchros. Power won't effect those.
Will shorten bearing life though.