The everlasting ph1 ITB Build **GREEN-BUILD STARTS AT PAGE 100**

[bomber]

good times mate. those ebay doors are flimsy as fook, massive gap at speed between door and frame, the ones ive seen anyway. and the finish on them is gobshite, the amount of filler you'd need would double the weight lol

 

[Nafoff]

bomber and Gray are probably getting a bit fed-up of my texts, i have been on another downer this week about the car, not sure why really, i spose it might be seeing it going further and further away from being a complete car, that and the fact that i know my bill at the end is getting larger and larger... to a point where i am unsure i am comfortable... The thing is i don't want to do things by half measures, i have this one chance to do things properly, so its either properly or not at all.... the thing is properly costs and I am by no means living easily anyways... let alone with trying to build this....

I just keep thinking at this point its the easiest point to possibly call it a day, split the car and get rid of it all....
...but i would only end up buying something else fun at some point... ( a DCi only would just kill me),

The other thing that worries me is if once i build it, will i use it to its full capability, ultimately one day i want to be competing in it, maybe sprints and hillclimbs, but i just can't see past the £££ side of things at the moment.... I know projects are all about ups and downs but this is by far my darkest thought on the car yet.... sunday evening i had pretty much decided to sell the car, now i am unsure again and have other plans for it....ffs

on that note, find below the past few days thoughts...

Just when I thought no more weight could be removed from the car...!!

see below

fibreglass doors and boot to save some more weight , companie on ebay sell them , they claim they are 5kg each and are moulded to the renault doors and boot so say they are a good fit , that could save over 100kg

good times mate. those ebay doors are flimsy as fook, massive gap at speed between door and frame, the ones ive seen anyway. and the finish on them is gobs**te, the amount of filler you'd need would double the weight lol

Bomber got there before i did, i have heard stories about the fibreglass doors / tailgates, thats what put me off, in the tailgate its the glass that weighs the majority anyways, of which i already have the PVC rear screen for, tailgate and door wise i will be cutting more out when these panels get removed from the shell anyways.... get every last bit out of them, aslong as i can still mount the interior carbon panels to them, its cool.... i will be taking alot of inspiration from Kenny (also got a project thread), he seems to be doing alot of good stuff, see below...

another thing that again i spotted in Kennys thread was the use of seat rails, its nothing new i know, but its something i have thought about for a while, i was picking Foxy's brains on it a while back when i spotted them in his E30, but seeing it done here again just reminded me of it...

as i mentioned at the top i am wanting to do things properly and after seeing these pics and re-thinking my subframes i am wondering about this now, although there is nothing really wrong with my subframes, after all they do the job and will be super-low in that respect however i can't feel a little bit pikey about them for 2 reasons...

With the nature of where the existing mounts are these frames mount to those and then aim towards the back of the car, this meant the seats where mounted back a fair bit, this isn't a problem with regards to the frames as they are nice and solid but with the seats so far back it could cause flex, so we welded on a stanchion on the outer corner to solve it....again this does the job... the second reason was the Hockey-puck spacer, again with the nature of the existing mount points one is higher than the other, i then come up with the idea about using an ice hockey puck (galvanized rubber) trimmed down to act as the spacer, again it does the job but again i can't help but feel a little bit pikey for it....

am i just over-thinking things? or thinking beyond my means?
at the end of the day i don't have any fab skills so everything costs (as i said at the top)

who knows if i will complete it.... or sell....hmmm

if anyone has any experience with making seat - rails t would be good to hear your opinions..
i know you can also purchase them from demon tweeks and the like... anybody had any experience with these?

 

[NorthloopCup]

I put seat rails in my track car. It's easy to do as well. Just make sure you measure everything up and get it square to the sills/tunnel. Also make sure the bars are level. I bought the rail kit from Tweeks and found it to be excellent quality.

Get it built and enjoy the car mate. I put a lot of money into the last car I built (25k ish) and by the time I'd decided it was finished I'd got bored of it and bought the cup! Now it just sits there unused. This I regret tbh.

 

[Kenny.s]

I've had loads of project cars over the past 10 years, dread to think what I've spent and ultimately lost doing so, but I've enjoyed my self and for me thats what matters. Least you can look back and say I had or I did, rather than I wish I had etc.

When you're at this stage in a build it can seem like you're not getting anywhere with it and it just keeps swallowing cash! But there comes a point when it all starts to come together, you can see obvious progress and it starts looking like a car again. Sometimes though, you need to take a wee breather from it and get your enthusiasm back.
For me, because I work away for 2 weeks I get natural breaks from it, frustrating as they can be they probably do me good sometimes. When I get home from work I'm ready to get cracking with it again.

Regards the seats, I would be inclined to put seat rails in, as much as you perhaps dont want to, you need to consider the worst case outcome, In an accident, the harness will take a lot of the stress but the seat needs to be solidly mounted to provide you with the best level of protection. If you intend to compete with the car, it's probably worth having things like this done now, doing things right the first time ultimately saves you money.

As I mentioned I my thread, if you have any specific questions regards putting the rails in, ask away and I'll do my best to help. You dont really need any fancy tools, just a angle grinder with a few flap discs, so much better than a grinding disc regards finish and control, a few files, hack saw, drill etc. If you can get them all cut to size and ready to weld in that will save a heap of time, assume your mate has got welding facilities?

 

[Nafoff]

I put seat rails in my track car. It's easy to do as well. Just make sure you measure everything up and get it square to the sills/tunnel. Also make sure the bars are level. I bought the rail kit from Tweeks and found it to be excellent quality.
Get it built and enjoy the car mate. I put a lot of money into the last car I built (25k ish) and by the time I'd decided it was finished I'd got bored of it and bought the cup! Now it just sits there unused. This I regret tbh.

Which rail kit did you use mate? i notice that tweeks have 2,
also do the rail kits come in 3 parts? the tubes, the end plates and then the actual mount points? the reason i ask is because buckets/sidemounts are all different widths, surely they can make them with the tubes/mount points already made up as this wouldn't fit all models of bucket/subframe.

 

[Jonny1*2]

I would assume you can mod the subframe for the OE runners to fit mate.

 

[Nafoff]

I've had loads of project cars over the past 10 years, dread to think what I've spent and ultimately lost doing so, but I've enjoyed my self and for me thats what matters. Least you can look back and say I had or I did, rather than I wish I had etc.

When you're at this stage in a build it can seem like you're not getting anywhere with it and it just keeps swallowing cash! But there comes a point when it all starts to come together, you can see obvious progress and it starts looking like a car again. Sometimes though, you need to take a wee breather from it and get your enthusiasm back.
For me, because I work away for 2 weeks I get natural breaks from it, frustrating as they can be they probably do me good sometimes. When I get home from work I'm ready to get cracking with it again.

Regards the seats, I would be inclined to put seat rails in, as much as you perhaps dont want to, you need to consider the worst case outcome, In an accident, the harness will take a lot of the stress but the seat needs to be solidly mounted to provide you with the best level of protection. If you intend to compete with the car, it's probably worth having things like this done now, doing things right the first time ultimately saves you money.

As I mentioned I my thread, if you have any specific questions regards putting the rails in, ask away and I'll do my best to help. You dont really need any fancy tools, just a angle grinder with a few flap discs, so much better than a grinding disc regards finish and control, a few files, hack saw, drill etc. If you can get them all cut to size and ready to weld in that will save a heap of time, assume your mate has got welding facilities?

cheers for getting back to me in here mate,
this is my first real in-depth project car, it wouldn't have even got this far if it wasn't for my previous job which made me able to get alot of the top products on the car now, (another reason i now can't do half a job on it....)
I knew i wasn't the only person that had experienced the dark times in a build so its good to hear other peoples views, i am sure its not that far off turning the corner now but whilst your still at the stage whilst removing stuff its hard...

I have had a look over your thread and am going to investigate the seat rails now, i may look into getting them fabricated elsewhere and then take them to the car to save my mate wasting his time down there, i have a another newly acquainted friend that works in fabrication so he may be up for it, i will have to see, needless to say i think thats the way its going now....

 

[Nafoff]

I would assume you can mod the subframe for the OE runners to fit mate.

ha... no runners or anything here..... i am fully grown (no more growth spurts) so won't need to be adjusting my seat....

 

[bomber]

Nom Nom told me that you have growth spurts most mornings?

 

[Gray]

Nom Nom told me that you have growth spurts most mornings?

PMSL.

 

[Gray]

I can totally understand how you are feeling at the moment 'Boner... It does seem like a hella' lot of work to complete the build, but you are close to the turning point / top of the Mountain, only a few little details to finalise;

• Sort a seating solution that you are happy with.
• Trim the last bits of weight away from the car.
• final inspection / check.

Then the car can be painted? (I think..)

Then the the REAL FUN starts, building the thing back up, which you know me and Bomber will help with.. Free Labour FTW :approve:

maybe three weekends, or me and Bomber come down for a week and ring in sick for work :dead: to get the car built back up?!

Throw it on a trailer, up to TDF for a loom and calibration, drive it home grinning like a Cheshire cat on speed?

 

[NorthloopCup]

Which rail kit did you use mate? i notice that tweeks have 2,
also do the rail kits come in 3 parts? the tubes, the end plates and then the actual mount points? the reason i ask is because buckets/sidemounts are all different widths, surely they can make them with the tubes/mount points already made up as this wouldn't fit all models of bucket/subframe.

The rail kit I bought uses the 25mm tubes and it was the cheapest as well iirc.

Yeah it comes in separate pieces so it can be made to suit all different widths of sidemounts. You drill the holes for the tubes to pass through, then put the strengthening plates over the tubes/holes and weld them on. All that's left to do then is offer the sidemount locating brackets on with the seat and sidemounts and weld into place accordingly. Took me about 1.5hrs to do both sides.

 

[frenchthing]

not sure what kit he got but i recently fitted some to a clio Matt @TDF id preparing and they had some nice captive nuts that floated side to side to accomadate varios sidemounts/seat widths.. think they were £50 a side from memory...

when i did his old Xsara i welded in some 30x30x3mm thick box section and drilled thru that..

on my car i used some 40mm diamter tubes (old OMP doorbars from memory) and then got the tabs laser cut to TIG on:

you can make them by holesawing/disc cutting box section but tbh the laser boys only charged a quid each...

 

[Nafoff]

Nom Nom told me that you have growth spurts most mornings?

she was definitely telling lies, lol

I can totally understand how you are feeling at the moment 'Boner... It does seem like a hella' lot of work to complete the build, but you are close to the turning point / top of the Mountain, only a few little details to finalise;

• Sort a seating solution that you are happy with.
• Trim the last bits of weight away from the car.
• final inspection / check.

Then the car can be painted? (I think..)
Then the the REAL FUN starts, building the thing back up, which you know me and Bomber will help with.. Free Labour FTW :approve:
maybe three weekends, or me and Bomber come down for a week and ring in sick for work :dead: to get the car built back up?!
Throw it on a trailer, up to TDF for a loom and calibration, drive it home grinning like a Cheshire cat on speed?

you make it sound all so easy...lol, it will get there in the end i suppose.

The rail kit I bought uses the 25mm tubes and it was the cheapest as well iirc.
Yeah it comes in separate pieces so it can be made to suit all different widths of sidemounts. You drill the holes for the tubes to pass through, then put the strengthening plates over the tubes/holes and weld them on. All that's left to do then is offer the sidemount locating brackets on with the seat and sidemounts and weld into place accordingly. Took me about 1.5hrs to do both sides.

ahhh, so you have to drill through the inner sills and then the exhaust tunnel and slightly slot the tubes through?...correct?
do you then weld the pipe in before you put the strengthening plates on?

not sure what kit he got but i recently fitted some to a clio Matt @TDF id preparing and they had some nice captive nuts that floated side to side to accomadate varios sidemounts/seat widths.. think they were £50 a side from memory...
when i did his old Xsara i welded in some 30x30x3mm thick box section and drilled thru that..
on my car i used some 40mm diamter tubes (old OMP doorbars from memory) and then got the tabs laser cut to TIG on:

you can make them by holesawing/disc cutting box section but tbh the laser boys only charged a quid each...

i may chase matt on that to ask,
good idea on the mount points, i will look into there also, obviously you need to know what size tubing you are using for these, i am seeing a fabricator friend tonight so will be speaking to him about it....

 

[BIGASH]

Hi Neil, Just replied to your PM and then had a catch up on this since I last read it about a month ago, Don't lose hope with the car I know what you mean with regards to selling up and cutting your losses as I was at the same point in June this year and even wrote out the advert but then I kept at it and didn't give up and I'm glad I didn't . If I were you I would spend time getting it right before paint and then once you have got it painted then you will surprised how quickly it will all come together!

The car that frenchthing is talking about is mine and it is the kit from DT that I linked to you in the PM. I would go for this kit rather than the other one that DT do as this one has more adjustability.

I may of been wrong then on my PM about cutting the rail to the correct width and then welding it in as drilling through the shell would make more sense and be stronger!

 

[NorthloopCup]

I only welded the tubes to the strengthening plates after they were welded to the shell. I didn't weld the tubes to the sills/tunnel as the hole needs to be bigger than the tube to get it slot in. Make sense?

 

[Nafoff]

Hi Neil, Just replied to your PM and then had a catch up on this since I last read it about a month ago, Don't lose hope with the car I know what you mean with regards to selling up and cutting your losses as I was at the same point in June this year and even wrote out the advert but then I kept at it and didn't give up and I'm glad I didn't . If I were you I would spend time getting it right before paint and then once you have got it painted then you will surprised how quickly it will all come together!
The car that frenchthing is talking about is mine and it is the kit from DT that I linked to you in the PM. I would go for this kit rather than the other one that DT do as this one has more adjustability.
I may of been wrong then on my PM about cutting the rail to the correct width and then welding it in as drilling through the shell would make more sense and be stronger!

Yeah once its painted i will probably change tack, just a pain that doing everything right costs soooo much dollar...lol
things will be getting done right though, i owe it to the car (other bits that are going on etc etc)

ah ok, thats real handy to know, i spose the only question now is even with the adjustability on those frames, do they fit MOST seat/subframe widths, i will have to measure up an see, will probably go ahead with them.... i spoke to a fabricator friend last night, he said he would have been able to do it very cheap in his old job as the materials could of GONE MISSING if you get me, however he has just started a new job last week, i wouldn't even entertaining that question.

I only welded the tubes to the strengthening plates after they were welded to the shell. I didn't weld the tubes to the sills/tunnel as the hole needs to be bigger than the tube to get it slot in. Make sense?

it does make alot more sense as you say.
so, you drill holes into the sill side and then through the exhaust tunnel. But where the tube is in the exhaust tunnel, surely thats left open (so the inner of the tube is open to the elements).... that can't be a good thing

 

[NorthloopCup]

it does make alot more sense as you say.
so, you drill holes into the sill side and then through the exhaust tunnel. But where the tube is in the exhaust tunnel, surely thats left open (so the inner of the tube is open to the elements).... that can't be a good thing[/QUOTE]

Yeah the end of the tube is open to the elements but there's not much weather that would reach the insides of the tubes due to the close proximity of the exhaust and it's tucked up in the tunnel. You could always weld a blank over the end of the tube if you were that worried, or just underseal it or waxoyl it?

 

[bomber]

Keep at it mate, like Gray says we can get it back together in no time once paint is done. A couple of bank holiday weekends and boom, upto Matt's

 

[Nafoff]

so i have pretty much decided that i will be going with some weld in rails from demon tweeks, just need to keep an eye on my fundage and will probably get them ordered asap.
i will either put the super-low subframes up for sale or will use the metal elsewhere in the car.

also does anyone have a hole swager they could lend me?

need to get back on it properly in 2012

 

[Gray]

The swager will depends on the size of the holes you are drilling....

2012.. The come back! Let's do it.

 

[Nafoff]

or the size of the holes i am drilling will depend on what size swager i can borrow (if i can borrow / find one)

 

[Kenny.s]

What bits on the car are you wanting to flare? The ebay ones will be fine for thin stuff

 

[Gray]

or the size of the holes i am drilling will depend on what size swager i can borrow (if i can borrow / find one)

I like your thinking!

 

[frenchthing]

if you know someone with a lathe i have some drawings somewhere in CAD to make your own... its what i did...

 

[Nafoff]

What bits on the car are you wanting to flare? The ebay ones will be fine for thin stuff

I was looking to totally playgourise (spelling?) your idea of drilling/flaring anywhere i can really, cross-member, doors, tailgate etc. I may end up buying/using the ebay ones, however it seems pointless for just 1 application.

if you know someone with a lathe i have some drawings somewhere in CAD to make your own... its what i did...

Sounds interesting, by saying that you have now made me consider another mate that may be able to help, i may get back to you.

 

[Kenny.s]

The ebay ones should be fine for thinner stuff, doors etc but as they're made from ally, I dont know how well they'll cope with doing the front crossmember, might do it but got a feeling they'll get mashed up doing so.
The 30mm one I made is just mild steel but has a noteable mark on it from doing the crossmember, on the last hole I flared on the crossmember i put a smear of grease on all the contact faces and oiled the bolt up, definitely helped.

If you know someone with a lathe they're dead easy to knock up, I just did mine manually on the lathe but CAD would obviously be better if you have access to that. Dont imagine it would cost much to have made, and would mean you could have them made in steel. Plus if you did that, you could probably sell them on once you were finished with them.

I recon 30,25 & 20mm are all the sizes you'd need to flare which ever part of the car you care to put a hole in.

 

[Nafoff]

so i have found a mate who may be able to knock one (or a few) up for me, just need those cad drawings now....
or any other drawings if anyone has them...

frenchthing - you have a pm...

 

[Nafoff]

spoke to my mate (painter/bodyshop) and un-expectedly they have drilled out the seat-rails, happy days, saves me that nasty job...
will be ordering the demon tweaks set up aslong as they fit the recaro widths, then will sort all the other interior welding out...

need to decide on a final colour soon too

 

[BIGASH]

They fit both my Sabelt taurus seats and the Pole positions

What colour are you thinking of doing it?

 

[Nafoff]

I have pole positions so thats sorted.
The interior is going satin black, thats already decided,

Its the outside thats the problem, was thinking satin green but unsure if thats sensible

 

[BIGASH]

Sounds good! I think you would have to get the tint of green 100% correct as it would either look epic or pants IMO! I have gone for a Matt grey wrap but now its on i'm not 100% on the colour but it's on now so it's staying

 

[Jonny1*2]

Alien green Neil, you know you want to

 

[Nafoff]

car looks good, engine bay has been scotched and is ready to start painting/primering etc etc....
as i said the seat rails have also been drilled out....


i think i have again changed my mind on colour too... Satin is just not a good idea i think, it will require too much up-keep to look half decent, so i am now completely open to colour ideas..

 

[BIGASH]

Sounds awesome can't wait to see progress, Keep us updated

 

[bomber]

Liquid yellow? Loved the gun metal on my GTR but dont know what it would look like on a smaller car

 

[Silent_Scone]

liquid yellow is a bit glam for a ph1 I thought :/

Neil, go prove me wrong

 

[Gray]

How about silver?

 

[Silent_Scone]

LOL

 

[Jonny1*2]

no one has done AG iirc. It was photoshopped and looked good. Black rims, white interior would look immense i'm. Don't be boring and do Silver