stock vs 428 vs 421 vs c&b

[Little_tortilia_boy]

i read the forum about this cams, and came round that 428 and c&b`s are good for stock ecu and 421 would have problems with idle on stock ecu...what about 421+UNICHIP(piggyback ecu) would that work....car is 182...would like to see graphs of stock cars with that cams, to see which would do for me...tnx

 

[Fred@BTM]

unichip - s**t

 

[Mike_182]

Lol @ Unichip. Set fire to it. Although it may do that itself.

 

[Little_tortilia_boy]

so what would be smart choice with 421s, or not 421at all

 

[KungFuSpaghetti]

428's gains are minimal, even with ITB's I could barely notice removing them.

 

[Fred@BTM]

^that's if they were timed up correctly in the first place eh

 

[Mike_182]

IMO there are plenty of better ways to spend £1500 on a stock motor than cams.

 

[KungFuSpaghetti]

LOL, who knows! All I know is that the person that did it cannot be trusted full stop, so it really would not surprise me at all. Dont worry, wont be going to those cnuts again.

 

[Little_tortilia_boy]

mike what do you have in mind

 

[KungFuSpaghetti]

little bit more money and you can have ITB's... or you could do it yourself if you're handy with spanners.

 

[en035]

unichip - s**t

^^^as above forget unichip, almost 90 % failed under weather conditions that I have seen.

My vote, C&B plus Henk@FASTCHIP remap. You are going to get impressive gains, 190-195 HP ATF or 170 HP ATW. I assume you have all the usual basic breathing mods there.

 

[sideways danny]

You are going to get impressive gains, 190-195 HP ATF or 170 HP ATW. I assume you have all the usual basic breathing mods there.

LOL!!!!!!!!

they're good cams, probably the best i've seen so far on a stock engine (they destroy 428s), but they dont give 30bhp

 

[Quade]

LOL!!!!!!!!

they're good cams, probably the best i've seen so far on a stock engine (they destroy 428s), but they dont give 30bhp

Danny, how are they (c&b's) that much better than 428's? Are they better in the bottom/midrange/top end or all of the above? Is it worth me selling my 428's and getting a set of c&b's?

 

[Kam.]

with the 428's you should get gains in the region of 15hp, They're as lairy as you can go on the OE ecu and requires a map to get the fueling / timing right.. the 421's will get more but this needs an aftermarket ECU..

 

[Andyman]

IMO there are plenty of better ways to spend £1500 on a stock motor than cams.

You can get nice gains from cams but in terms of work fitting them and the cost vs the gains you actually get theres better options to start with.

Also dont focus on peak power. Choose your cams based on what your doing with the car.
Nothing worse than a road car you have to rev the tits off to get it to move and being flat at the bottom end

 

[sideways danny]

Danny, how are they (c&b's) that much better than 428's? Are they better in the bottom/midrange/top end or all of the above? Is it worth me selling my 428's and getting a set of c&b's?

more of everything everywhere in the rev range, and the map isn't satisfactory yet (why we're not yet selling a package)

 

[Jonnyb182]

what is the c&b profile spec?

 

[sideways danny]

Cam Lift Inlet : 5.7
Cam Lift Exhaust : 5.5
Duration : 286°/280°
Lobe Centre Angle (Variator Closed): 124°
Lobe Centre Angle (Variator Open): 104°/°
Valve Lift at TDC (Variator Closed): 0.5 / 1.2
Valve Lift at TDC (Variator Open): 3.5 / 1.2
Valve Timing (Variator Closed): 19°-87° / 70°-30°
Valve Timing (Variator Open): 39°-52° / 70°-30°
Clearance : Hydraulic Tappets

remember lift is on a multiplier as it's a rocker arm

 

[Quade]

Hey Danny you got a date for me yet mate? Wanna get the car finished for the 20th march so i can tag onto the 16valver rr day at powerstation!

 

[sideways danny]

Hey Danny you got a date for me yet mate? Wanna get the car finished for the 20th march so i can tag onto the 16valver rr day at powerstation!

pm me your phone number

 

[Gray]

Looking forward to the C&B results

 

[Quade]

PM sent!

 

[en035]

LOL!!!!!!!!

they're good cams, probably the best i've seen so far on a stock engine (they destroy 428s), but they dont give 30bhp

never told you that is pure result off the cams. Fully ported polished EDM'ed plenum, port matched lower inlet mani, 182 4-2-1 headers + decat pipe + 2.5" zorst + maxogen + Henk's custom cal. That is my recipe, I cannot make you believe but there are some other users also ended up with similar results.

P.S. Previously seen many RS's hitting sub 190's including Ali's as far as I can remember. So with cam's does that sound so unreasonable to you?

 

[franx]

^^ same setup here (except for the M$$xogen filter) , 170 at the wheels with C&B

 

[JonC]

Interesting to hear that opinions of Unichip are somewhat unfavourable. Interesting to me as I have one fitted to my Trophy. Didn't know it was even fitted until after I bought it. It wasn't long before I had it "re-mapped" after I took off the big open foam induction kit that came with the car and refitted the standard air box minus accoustic valve and fitment of a RS192 exhaust.

I can't say when it was installed but the car has been running fine in the two years I've owned the Trophy. Can't say it's been detrimental to fuel consumption or performance either since I average 33mpg of mixed driving and can slowly pull away from a EP3 CTR (my brother's so I know he was trying!!) from a rolling start up to the ton and reliability has been 100%.

I'm not saying it's the best "chip" bar none, I was looking at the RS tuner kit before I found out about the Unichip. Be genuinely interested to hear if anyone else has had first hand experience of these devices good and bad and also why those who I consider very knowledgable about tuning cars consider the Unichip device to be cr@p. (not looking for a slanging match, just genuinely interested.)

 

[sideways danny]

there's issues with using a piggyback on an ECU like the clios which uses adaption. The stock ECU basically learns its way back to near standard as you're not changing the targets it has set

 

[en035]

^^^ plus very prone to fail under weather conditions.

 

[Mike_182]

I think they term the coding on the ECU as 'open', in that it's not a set of hard and fast instructions, more an intelligence and working out best from the parameters it has set versus the values the sensors tell it. As such I think Unichips are better at dealing with more primitive 'closed' systems, where the ECU has instructions on exactly what to do at what revs at what throttle position.

 

[JonC]

As I understand and what I have been told is that the standard ecu receives signals from the various sensors in and around the engine. Depending on what it reads, the ecu the sends these signals and these signals are then intercepted by the Unichip unit and then alters the signal, to the fuel injectors for example, to optimise fuelling for more performance, then the unichip sends the signal back to the standard ecu minus the enhancements, so that the the ecu is "fooled" thinking it is still working with the standard signal within the standard parameters. So the ecu still learns within the standard parameters as normal, but is enhanced by the unichip.

 

[sideways danny]

As I understand and what I have been told is that the standard ecu receives signals from the various sensors in and around the engine. Depending on what it reads, the ecu the sends these signals and these signals are then intercepted by the Unichip unit and then alters the signal, to the fuel injectors for example, to optimise fuelling for more performance, then the unichip sends the signal back to the standard ecu minus the enhancements, so that the the ecu is "fooled" thinking it is still working with the standard signal within the standard parameters. So the ecu still learns within the standard parameters as normal, but is enhanced by the unichip.

try disconnecting your battery for a while to reset the ecu. I'll bet it feel faster

 

[JonC]

Would that also reset the "optimized" settings for the Unichip? It would reset the standard ecu and clear my "bad" driving habits, but whatever signal sent by the standard ecu, it will still be enhanced by the piggy back unit, no?

 

[sideways danny]

it will clear the learned settings in the std ecu and put it back to what was "tuned", until it re-learns again

 

[en035]

I think they term the coding on the ECU as 'open', in that it's not a set of hard and fast instructions, more an intelligence and working out best from the parameters it has set versus the values the sensors tell it. As such I think Unichips are better at dealing with more primitive 'closed' systems, where the ECU has instructions on exactly what to do at what revs at what throttle position.

Siemens Sirius ECU is "wide-open" as long as you know how to do. I have not seen a thing that Henk cannot do.

 

[Mike_182]

Yeah.

Basically I think you need - rather than changing the signals going to the ECU and back out - to change the set of values the ECU is 'learning' to. The Unichip can't do that - Henk (and others who remap these engines) can.

 

[JonC]

Doesn't the ECU run in two modes, open and closed? It runs in open, for example on start up when the engine is cold and using measurements from various the sensors (o2/lambda/coolant, throttle, evironmental factors etc) to make "guesses" to ensure it meets emissions, fuel consumption targets etc. Once the engine is up to temperature and at WOT it reverts to a closed loop where it uses only the defined standard/default set of parameters. It is these "standard" settings/map that are altered with a remap or these signals from the ecu for these settings are intercepted by the piggyback units.

The ecu will only learn whatever signal is sent to it. If the signal is intercepted by the piggyback unit and reset back to the "expected" signal for the ecu, how can the ecu learn its way back to standard to compensate for the piggyback unit.

I realise this is a simplistic view to a somewhat complex process!

 

[JonC]

Here is some more interesting info regarding ECU mapping, Unichip and "self learning" ECUs from a Unichip technician.

http://sgauto.wordpress.com/unichip-q-ecu-performance-tuning/

Actually the site has a lot of interesting articles too.

 

[BoomOne]

I have a unichip on my ph1, havent had any problems at all, and its been thru pretty much all types of weather conditions.

Gained and extra 7kw's over the std setup and cost a third of the price of a remap