uprating injectors, quick question

[Sean.]

if changing from standard injectors to some larger flow ones, for example,the ktec websites ones.

Can i fit them and keep everything else the same, eg straight swap.

on Itb's by the way.

if i swapped over the injectors, nothing on the map would need changing or am i off the mark here?

Sean

 

[Cro]

I think the map needs changing to suit Sean. Might also depend on the injector you are putting in. What are you going for?

 

[Sean.]

well my car is up for sale at the mo, but chances are this car im looking at will fall through, so if so then im going to keep the clio a bit longer and accumilate everything for turbo conversion, (low pressure) with the itb's. So to get things moving i can do things like change injectors, mount Intercooler, all them kinda things that can be done without effecting the car day to day.

Injectors seems like a good place to start, so i would use the ones from ktec.

 

[Mesa]

What's the size/flow of the standard ones?

 

[Fred@BTM]

not thought about using megane 225 ones? injectors are way cheaper from the US etc

 

[Sean.]

will they drop straight in, literally switch engine off, put injectors in, turn engine on, drive away?

 

[RSTuning]

You will need to have the map re-scaled to suit as they are much bigger

 

[sideways danny]

you can re-scale to a point to make it run, but it wont be "right". Different injectors work at different rates, a different spray pattern can change the duty cycle requirements so % changes can be no more than guesses. Void/null time between cycles can be different. Injectors are quick to change just before mapping anyway, I'd wait until you actually need them.

 

[GodSpeed]

you can re-scale to a point to make it run, but it wont be "right". Different injectors work at different rates, a different spray pattern can change the duty cycle requirements so % changes can be no more than guesses. Void/null time between cycles can be different. Injectors are quick to change just before mapping anyway, I'd wait until you actually need them.

I have the problem of almost maxing out the stock ones on my Clio 182 @ 97,5% Injection Duty Cycle :S Heard that you should not exceed 80% Seems amazing with stock internals and only exhaust + inlet mods.

This winter 428 cams will go in so I guess injectors is a must do. Found a PDF with specifications of MagnetiMarelli Pico injectors. Since 042's are 283cc I guess its logic to go for the 043's with 329cc. But these have a differnet flow pattern. Single streem instad of split streem on the 042's. Does anyone know in what ways that may affect.

http://www.magneti-marelli.com/download_zone/4_fuel_parts/pico_spray_01.pdf

Btw Fred! What injectors are used on the 225?

EDIT: Singe stream are only to be used on engines with one intake valve per cylinder. Split stream for 2valves per cylinder.

 

[sideways danny]

I have the problem of almost maxing out the stock ones on my Clio 182 @ 97,5% Injection Duty Cycle :S Heard that you should not exceed 80% Seems amazing with stock internals and only exhaust + inlet mods.

This winter 428 cams will go in so I guess injectors is a must do. Found a PDF with specifications of MagnetiMarelli Pico injectors. Since 042's are 283cc I guess its logic to go for the 043's with 329cc. But these have a differnet flow pattern. Single streem instad of split streem on the 042's. Does anyone know in what ways that may affect.

http://www.magneti-marelli.com/download_zone/4_fuel_parts/pico_spray_01.pdf

Btw Fred! What injectors are used on the 225?

EDIT: Singe stream are only to be used on engines with one intake valve per cylinder. Split stream for 2valves per cylinder.

You think you're maxing the injectors on stock cams? I'll make it easy for you, you're not.

 

[matty172cup]

would it be worth uprating injectors when putting itb's on?

 

[sideways danny]

no dont need to.

 

[GodSpeed]

You think you're maxing the injectors on stock cams? I'll make it easy for you, you're not.

What shall I belive?! It says 97,5% in the RSTuner live data log. So Im not thinking anything just reading what it says.

EDIT: Theoreticaly the 283cc stock injectors should bottom out around 200hp at the specified max IDC of 90%.

 

[GodSpeed]

no dont need to.

Strange statement when both K-tec and Yozza provide 330cc injectors with their ITB kits. But I suppose you know better

 

[en035]

why don't you email Henk about it. I am pretty sure he has an explanation for that.

I have the problem of almost maxing out the stock ones on my Clio 182 @ 97,5% Injection Duty Cycle :S Heard that you should not exceed 80% Seems amazing with stock internals and only exhaust + inlet mods.

This winter 428 cams will go in so I guess injectors is a must do. Found a PDF with specifications of MagnetiMarelli Pico injectors. Since 042's are 283cc I guess its logic to go for the 043's with 329cc. But these have a differnet flow pattern. Single streem instad of split streem on the 042's. Does anyone know in what ways that may affect.

http://www.magneti-marelli.com/download_zone/4_fuel_parts/pico_spray_01.pdf

Btw Fred! What injectors are used on the 225?

EDIT: Singe stream are only to be used on engines with one intake valve per cylinder. Split stream for 2valves per cylinder.

 

[GodSpeed]

why don't you email Henk about it. I am pretty sure he has an explanation for that.

Yes I have done that. Waiting for a reply

 

[en035]

re-scaling the cal. file would not be that straight-forward I suppose, if so. I have got a brand new set of meggy 225 injectors I will surely go ahead and get them installed. Please let me know about the progress as well.

Best

Alper

 

[GodSpeed]

re-scaling the cal. file would not be that straight-forward I suppose, if so. I have got a brand new set of meggy 225 injectors I will surely go ahead and get them installed. Please let me know about the progress as well.

Best

Alper

I am afraid thet the Megane 225 injectors (IWP069) may be to big. They flow 465cc/min @ 3bar and have the wrong flow pattern (single stream) Stock ones are IWP042 283cc/min @ 3bar with split flow. I calculated that a power output of 220hp and a IDC of 80% would requaire 350,6cc injectors however these injectors are specified as race injectors and have a maximum IDC of 90% so the 330cc/min IWP043 should be okey. They do have the wrong spray pattern though.

However I read about an injector developed out of the 043, same specifications but with 4-split flow. Its called IWP162. Its used on some of the top Duacati bikes and under the name 27609-01A in some Harley Davidson bikes.

Of I cant source a pair of these I think Ill contact K-kec or Yozza and ask to buy 4x of the injectors that the use in their ITB kits. Most likley the IWP043 version (330cc).

 

[Fastchip]

re-scaling the cal. file would not be that straight-forward I suppose, if so. I have got a brand new set of meggy 225 injectors I will surely go ahead and get them installed. Please let me know about the progress as well.

Best

Alper

Can re-scale them for you Alper, if you want to put them in. But you don't need them at this point.

 

[Fastchip]

I have the problem of almost maxing out the stock ones on my Clio 182 @ 97,5% Injection Duty Cycle Heard that you should not exceed 80% Seems amazing with stock internals and only exhaust + inlet mods.

Saturated Injectors can run 100% duty all day long, as do the old style Peak & Hold Injectors but they need current limitation which is usually done by an OEM ECU like the old style Fenix 3A/B.


Also you dont need bigger injectors with 428's or C&B cams. Only if you need togo > 7500 rpm which isn't smart in the first place.

Regards, Henk

 

[GodSpeed]

Saturated Injectors can run 100% duty all day long, as do the old style Peak & Hold Injectors but they need current limitation which is usually done by an OEM ECU like the old style Fenix 3A/B.


Also you dont need bigger injectors with 428's or C&B cams. Only if you need togo > 7500 rpm which isn't smart in the first place.

Regards, Henk

When you do a custom map for the 428 cams does that not include giving the engine more fuel? Ive read the specifications for the Pico injectors and it says that 90% IDC (static) is maximum for optimal operation. So id rather be on the safe side to be honest.

Would it be any problem for you include bigger injectors in the custom map Ill do when cams are in place?

Best reagrds // M

 

[kevin_172]

K-tec don't supply larger injectors with there ITB kit!!!! Lol..

 

[GodSpeed]

K-tec don't supply larger injectors with there ITB kit!!!! Lol..

Ohh so they supply 4x injectors at the same size as stock then? Seems kind of stupid?!

Quote: "This will include the throttle bodies, ecu, injectors, cable operated pedal assembly (Ph2 cars only), fitting brackets, dedicated 172/182 wiring harness, sensors, ecu software and instructions."

http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=2478

 

[kevin_172]

hmm let me see I have the k-tec ITB's installed!!!! so i do know what im talking about!! they use the standard fuel rail and the standard injectors

 

[GodSpeed]

hmm let me see I have the k-tec ITB's installed!!!! so i do know what im talking about!! they use the standard fuel rail and the standard injectors

Guess K-tec them selves dont know what they are talking about then...

 

[sideways danny]

Guess K-tec them selves dont know what they are talking about then...

looks like a mistake on the website. the kit 100% doesn't include injectors they're not needed

 

[kevin_172]

thank you danny!

 

[K-Tec Racing]

ok, for the turbo conversion you need the Siemens Deka 480CC items that are available via us... (aka the Megane 225 injectors), these are ok boosted upto approx 300bhp.

the IPW069 are the same CC/min but have the single spray...

for ITB's you dont need larger injecotors on a std engine, unless you go above 210bhp (approx), if you racing then its a good idea as your sitting at higher % duty for longer.

however for Seans question you can roughly (as dan says) rescale the fuel map for larger injectors (but the 225 inj have a FAR better spray pattern) so they dont quite equate to a linear rescaling...

If you need some help with this Seam drop me a line.

Andy

 

[T.Trophy]

Are you sure there 480cc Andy?

Am certain that there 390cc.

All the lads with 225's trying to get near 300bhp are having to swap them for larger injectors to get anywhere it.

Steve

 

[sideways danny]

we flow tested them. they're 480 or there-abouts

 

[T.Trophy]

Well I stand corrected then.

Wonder why all the lads with meganes are swapping them over to get over 270bhp?

I appreciate its all down to fuel pressure and application but I honestly don't think they'll hit 300bhp.

What pressure did you flow test them at? just out of curiousity

Steve

 

[GodSpeed]

for ITB's you dont need larger injecotors on a std engine, unless you go above 210bhp (approx), if you racing then its a good idea as your sitting at higher % duty for longer.

So if the criteria you describe above is fullfilled what injectors would you go for? I reccon around 330cc/min @ 3bar would be about right?!

I found several Magneti Marelli injectors in that range.

IWP162 330cc/min@3bar Quadsplit flow
IWP063 ~390cc/min@3bar Twin jet flow
IWP043 330cc/min@3bar Single spray

Are these injectors anything you can provide? Or give any idea where to buy?

Regards / M

 

[en035]

Can re-scale them for you Alper, if you want to put them in. But you don't need them at this point.

the std one's work fine at the moment Henk, as you said so, let's not touch them at least for now. Many thanks.

 

[K-Tec Racing]

330cc is a good size, I am still looking for a decent spray pattern for 330cc in a Siemens applicatiom (all be it I havnt put alot of time into it so far)

IPW043 was about 60% (ish) duty on a 230bhp engine.

 

[activ]

Let me give you two links that might help.

http://www.mmcompsys.com/download_zone/4_fuel_parts/pico_spray_01.pdf

http://www.atpower.co.uk/automotive_accessories.html

 

[GodSpeed]

330cc is a good size, I am still looking for a decent spray pattern for 330cc in a Siemens applicatiom (all be it I havnt put alot of time into it so far)

IPW043 was about 60% (ish) duty on a 230bhp engine.

Still a bit confused about that talk about Siemens injectors? The ones you sell for the turbo kit on your website looks like the single spray Magneti Marelli 465cc injectors?!?

http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=2102

Concerning the spray pattern I think the IWP162 may be the way to go, twin split flow or quad split flow should not matter if the angle is the same. Think Ill write MM and see if they can provide me with a specification chart for this injector. On Ducati bikes the IWP162 injector have replaced the IWP043 injector. Reasons is claimed to be better atomization resulting in more controlled idle and better "exhaust values".

Let me give you two links that might help.

http://www.mmcompsys.com/download_zone/4_fuel_parts/pico_spray_01.pdf

[URL="http://www.atpower.co.uk/automotive_accessories.html"]http://www.atpower.co.uk/automotive_accessories.html[/URL]

Great, thanks!

Had the first one, last one was good. The only had the single spray versions though. Think Ill mail them to see what they can offer.
http://www.atpower.co.uk/automotive_accessories.html

 

[sideways danny]

Still a bit confused about that talk about Siemens injectors? The ones you sell for the turbo kit on your website looks like the single spray Magneti Marelli 465cc injectors?!?

http://www.k-tecracing.com/show_product.asp?id=2102

they're Webcon. you can see the "W" logo on the plug

 

[activ]

Webcon. Pico. by MM. Take a part No. IPW 043,

I, for injector, P, for Pico, W, for Webcon,

Webcon logo can be seen here, Demon-Tweeks

The BHP per cylinder at fuel pressure table is interesting.

http://www.demon-tweeks.co.uk/products/ProductDetail.asp?cls=MSPORT&pcode=MMCIWP023