Trackday Claim for hitting another car

[Adamm.]

You just couldn't take it on track if you couldn't afford for it to be wiped out. Much better idea IMO. If you're taking your 100k car on track you should be prepared for the bill if anything happens to it.

Lol completely unfair for those with expensive cars which they want to insure tbh.

 

[Chip-mk1]

So pretty much to do trackdays now you would be stupid to not be insured?

That wont help, if person B was insured, he still would've had to pay out for the car he hit out of his own pocket as trackday insurance doesnt normally include 3rd party cover.

 

[DaveDreads]

Ah well, back to illegal street racing it is then.

 

[Adamm.]

Soon everyone will have to have track isurance then, oh I can just imagine how much that'll cost!:banghead:

Prices and cover would probably become competitive tbh, better than loosing the cost of a car surely?

 

[Adamm.]

That wont help, if person B was insured, he still would've had to pay out for the car he hit out of his own pocket as trackday insurance doesnt normally include 3rd party cover.

Surely both would just claim off their own insurance?

 

[Chip-mk1]

True but if you're insured and someone wipes your car out and your insured surely you're going to bloody relieved you are insured? Because lets face it there's a lot of people that wouldn't be gentle men about it.

If every single person on track is insured I don't get the issue unless you're on a tight budget, but lets face it if you're prepared to do trackdays and afford to loose a car I'm sure you could afford the insurance. Not ideal but at least you are covered if needs be.

But you are missing the point that trackday insurance doesnt cover 3rd parties normally mate.

So if me and you are both insured, and you smash into me, your insurance company pays you for your car, my insurance company pays me for my car, and then my insurance makes you pay them back for the money for my car, plus all their costs and legal fees etc.

So if we werent insured it would be:
I lose 3K car
You lose 3K car

Now its
I get 3K for my car
You get 3K for your car
You then have to pay out 10K to my insurer to cover the 3K they gave me, all their costs, and the cost of them taking you to court.

 

[*Badger*]

Surely both would just claim off their own insurance?

Yes, but A insurance company would try and recover their own costs from B's insurance company.

Just because the policy holder is paid out, the claim doesn't end there.

 

[*Badger*]

Also to add, this will multiply on a massive scale to those driving the 'ring uninsured on the premise that they can afford to lose what their driving.

 

[Willo]

I think (or should that be hope) there is probably some missing information. I would expect there was some negligence in the form of not slowing under yellows or even red flags for the insurance to reclaim their losses.

Saying sorry (effectively admitting liability) wont have helped unfortunately

 

[Adamm.]

Yes, but A insurance company would try and recover their own costs from B's insurance company.

Just because the policy holder is paid out, the claim doesn't end there.

Why? I don't see why they would need to go and try claim off someone else's insurance? Everyone covers themselves.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I think (or should that be hope) there is probably some missing information. I would expect there was some negligence in the form of not slowing under yellows or even red flags for the insurance to reclaim their losses.

Even if there is a yellow out, you cant be expected to see the first one you pass, as you are looking at the track and can only look at martial posts occasionally, so still unfair unless it had been yellow or red for ages.

I had a very similar thing happen at combe recently, someone else spun, I saw them and wasnt sure if they were joining or not so instinctively backed off which lost the backend on my car and I spun too, I dont beleive that was in anyway negligent personally (luckily i didnt hit them!)

Saying sorry (effectively admitting liability) wont have helped unfortunately

We all need to learn a lesson to never apologise for a trackday incident sadly, which personally goes totally against my nature as it would be the first thing I would normally say if I ever hit someone on a trackday.

 

[Adamm.]

Now its
I get 3K for my car
You get 3K for your car
You then have to pay out 10K to my insurer to cover the 3K they gave me, all their costs, and the cost of them taking you to court.

Well thats just stupid lol, I see the hate now.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Why? I don't see why they would need to go and try claim off someone else's insurance? Everyone covers themselves.

The guy whos car was the expensive one DID claim off his own insurance, but they werent happy to leave it there and went and got the money back from the other guy, so if you do as you say and all claim off our own insurance, our insurers will then all go looking for someone else to blame and get the money back from, they wont be happy to just pay out and lose a fortune.


Edit, apologies for the repitition your reply above wasnt there when I posted this one.

 

[Westyfield2]

eh?

What is third party insurance?
As defined by the BIBA Jargon Buster a "third party" is simply a person claiming against another person or body who is described as the Insured (policyholder). In insurance terminology the first party is the insurer and the second party is the insured person, so the one doing the claiming is the "third" party.

Third Party can include damage to someone's property (car, armco, track, building) or bodily injury - and that is anything from minor cuts and bruises to death!!.

There is growing questioning amongst trackday aficionados about the issue of third party liability cover. Questions we get asked are typically:
1. Am I covered?
2. Do the organisers cover me? and
3. Where can I buy trackday third party liability cover?

The answer in respect of the first two questions is almost certainly a resounding "No" and for the third questions the answer is "No where". In other words you have no cover and there is no insurer in the land who is regularly known to be providing this cover either. The next question that follows is "what happens if....?" and the short answer is cross everything and hope.... that sounds really scary right? - so lets put this into perspective for a moment...

Everyone out there is in the same boat - you are just as likely to end up being hit by someone else and have no real recourse against them either - so (1) make sure your car/bike IS insured of course (2) more importantly, make sure YOU are insured and take advantage of our personal Accident optional extras where you can insure for up to £100,000 for death (Yep - it sometimes can and does happen) and permanent total disablement.

So why don't motor insurers provide this cover? Much for the same reason many motor insurers wont cover trackday damage. There is an increased "risk" for starters, but also on a trackday you are driving / riding outside of all the "norms" of the public highway. Speed Limits, Cornering Speeds, Braking Distances etc are all abandoned in the quest for your days fun and travelling at speed outside of the framework of regular highway use effectively removes the comfort of the "known" factors for insurers.

So is there any protection? Well tale comfort from this. In a test ruling at Wolverhampton County Court. His Honour Judge Mitchell concluded that if someone crashes into you on a trackday, even if it is clearly their fault - then tough! The judgement followed a case where a driver under tuition collided with a track day participant who then sued for damages. In essence the judge's ruling is that anyone participating on a trackday is aware of the potential risks involved and has a choice of not driving on to the circuit. (Source: Circuitdriver.com, April 2007).

The disclaimers that are signed do have a bearing on the acceptance of the fact that everyone on the track has VOLUNTEERED to be there is the first place. No one is making you are anyone else get out there and no one is encouraging you to driver beyond speed you feel comfortable with. Race circuits are however an alien environment and can feel strange and wide open circuits like Silverstone can actually feel quite pedestrian - until it all starts going wrong. So, take responsibility for yourself, protect yourself and your machinery.

That's from www.moris.co.uk - a popular track day insurance company http://www.moris.co.uk/News/Third_Party_Track_day_liability_Insurance044. Seems to contradict that thread?

 

[MicKPM]

Utter madness and honestly, my head cannot process this right now plus its making me angry.

 

[*Badger*]

Why? I don't see why they would need to go and try claim off someone else's insurance? Everyone covers themselves.

As Chip said. If an insurance company can claim their costs back, they will. Who wants to spend 10k out of their own pocket/budget when they can legally get it back off somebody else?

 

[Willo]

Even if there is a yellow out, you cant be expected to see the first one you pass, as you are looking at the track and can only look at martial posts occasionally, so still unfair unless it had been yellow or red for ages.

I had a very similar thing happen at combe recently, someone else spun, I saw them and wasnt sure if they were joining or not so instinctively backed off which lost the backend on my car and I spun too, I dont beleive that was in anyway negligent personally (luckily i didnt hit them!)




We all need to learn a lesson to never apologise for a trackday incident sadly, which personally goes totally against my nature as it would be the first thing I would normally say if I ever hit someone on a trackday.

Totally agree with both points but what im saying is we're assuming no negligence when there may have been clear negligence.

 

[Chip-mk1]

eh?

That's from www.moris.co.uk - a popular track day insurance company http://www.moris.co.uk/News/Third_Party_Track_day_liability_Insurance044. Seems to contradict that thread?

The difference is when there is deemed to be negligence or not I would imagine between those two cases.

Sod having to trust a court to decide if Ive just made an honest mistake or been negligent though to decide whether or not I lose my house after a trackday incident!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Totally agree with both points but what im saying is we're assuming no negligence when there may have been clear negligence.

Unless he had driven around for ages under a yellow still going flat out, I dont see how its negligence rather than just a trackday mistake TBH.

Would be nice to have more facts though, and im sure they will come to light in time and we can all see a little more of how it came to this decision, but its still seriously bad news for all of us IMHO

 

[Adamm.]

Edit, apologies for the repitition your reply above wasnt there when I posted this one.

No worries I read your reply after badgers as it was longer to read lol

I was misunderstood at first, it just seems stupid to me now. Greedy insurance company's I guess?

 

[BoatNonce]

What should happen now is the trackday operators should refuse all cars insured by Chaucer Insurance, which could then possibly bankrupt Chaucer.

That serves as a good lesson that if you shaft other trackday users in order to maximise profit, then you will be driven onto the rocks by everyone else.

 

[*Badger*]

Next they'll be trying to prove who dumped the oil down etc that caused a policy holder to spin off.

Insurance companies use track day spotters, for people who tow out and then claim the accident was on the road, they'll just increase their presence IMO to help further with claims.

 

[Adam G]

This really doesn't add up to me, I hope there's more to it than meets the eye.
Otherwise the world truly has gone mad.

 

[Chip-mk1]

No worries I read your reply after badgers as it was longer to read lol

I was misunderstood at first, it just seems stupid to me now. Greedy insurance company's I guess?

Yes it goes without saying they are greedy as they have shareholders etc, so like any company they want to make a profit.

Bad news for the rest of us though, like Daniel says IMHO it would be better if no one was insured if this is how the insurance companies are going to act.
I would feel terrible if someone crashed into me, and then my insurance company went and stung them for the cost of my car plus loads more on top, I'd sooner not be insured than it end up costing another trackday going a fortune because I am, I simply dont take cars on track I cant afford to lose and if someone does make a mistake then I accept that.

 

[DaveDreads]

Well if this starts happening more often I can see a lot of tracks closing,
f*ck getting taken to the cleaners for a days blasting about,
i'm sure a lot of other people on average wages will feel the same.

 

[*Badger*]

I'm coming round to Daniels theory now too. It cuts out all the questions. But could end up in fights!

 

[Chip-mk1]

Next they'll be trying to prove who dumped the oil down etc that caused a policy holder to spin off.

Exactly the sort of thing we all need to be very concerned about.

If your car leaks oil when you are halfway round the track, if they can prove that means you were negligent in your maintenance of it then potentially you could get a million quid bill from a few people behind you who spin on it.

Sod that!

Insurance companies use track day spotters, for people who tow out and then claim the accident was on the road, they'll just increase their presence IMO to help further with claims.

Agreed, its not going to be hard for them to use more spotters if it gets them out of loads of claims.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Well if this starts happening more often I can see a lot of tracks closing,
f*ck getting taken to the cleaners for a days blasting about,
i'm sure a lot of other people on average wages will feel the same.

Exactly mate, if you are on a fairly limited income (like most of us!) then you trackday a car that falls in line with that to minimise your costs, but this ruling makes it look like you can go onto the track in a 2K car and come off with a 200K bill!

 

[Ed.200]

On what grounds though can the insurer that is suing you make you pay out?
As stated above my Moris, we volunteer and accept the risks for going out on track.

I may have missed something obvious

 

[*Badger*]

Exactly the sort of thing we all need to be very concerned about.

If your car leaks oil when you are halfway round the track, if they can prove that means you were negligent in your maintenance of it then potentially you could get a million quid bill from a few people behind you who spin on it.

Sod that!

Agree 100%. If someone did die, you'd be fucked, for a very long time at Her majesty's pleasure.

 

[car.crash]

If you remove your plates and cover your vin then they will struggle to claim on you.

 

[Chip-mk1]

If you remove your plates and cover your vin then they will struggle to claim on you.

No they wont, because you have typically booked on a credit card and had your driving license checked at signing on time!

Plus witnesses etc. I cant remember the last time I was at a trackday and didnt know a dozen people there, its a small circle of people really!

 

[Chip-mk1]

On what grounds though can the insurer that is suing you make you pay out?
As stated above my Moris, we volunteer and accept the risks for going out on track.

I may have missed something obvious

The court has deemed the second person negligent, so that is what is called a "county court judgement" (im sure you have seen CCJ's talked about?) against you, meaning there are implications if you dont pay it.

 

[Ed.200]

Not necessarily applying in this situation, but I would have thought that with a decent lawyer etc, a good case could be put together where the risks or doing the days is fully with the people who sign on and pay. And solid evidence would be required to prove someone was being negligent, e.g. consistent black flag for bad driving, or disregarding yellows etc etc where the marshals on the day would be brought in to provide evidence.

This may be a one off scenario, and people have got wind of it etc. but there will be a knock on effect. Track-day insurance is about to rise as more people will take it out and companies will capitalise on that, even though the actual incidents may nomore frequent that what they are now.

 

[Steve]

It was a novice day, another reason not to do these.

i have unlimited track days cover included in my policy.

 

[car.crash]

Can't the track days alter the contract then to say you drive at your own risk and you can't claim on each other?
maybe that's to simple and not as easy to do though.

 

[DaveDreads]

Can't the track days alter the contract then to say you drive at your own risk and you can't claim on each other?
maybe that's to simple and not as easy to do though.

Stuff like that doesn't stand up in court.

I was a skateboarder for 15 years and once Tony Hawks skateboarding game came out every little kid wanted to be a skater,
as a result parents were suing skateparks when little Jonny broke his arm or knocked himself out.

So they all started putting up signs that stated 'you skate here at your own risk',
didn't work at all they still lost in court, now most private skateparks insist on full pads and helmets or no entry.

Infact most private parks went out of business, now skateparks are council owned and built,
so that put an end to parents suing over injuries.

 

[Adamm.]

Infact most private parks went out of business, now skateparks are council owned and built,
so that put an end to parents suing over injuries.

Off topic but I still remember when Radlands in Northampton shut down, was meant to be awesome as well but never went there before it shut.

 

[DaveDreads]

It was, I literally lived there in the early 90s.

 

[MarkCup]

Can't the track days alter the contract then to say you drive at your own risk and you can't claim on each other?
maybe that's to simple and not as easy to do though.

Point missed...in this case they didn't claim from each other.

Driver A claimed from his insurance company and they paid out. Driver B had no cover so couldn't claim for the damage.

That's as far as the insurance went/goes.

After all that, the insurance company then chose to pursue Driver B in a seperate action to recover the costs they'd had to cover repairing the car of driver A.

So, no, insurance/compulsory cover for every driver on a trackday wouldn't solve a single thing.

If everyone had cover, and they all crashed into each other simultaneously they could all claim on their own insurance policies, then all the insurance companies could chase all the drivers in an attempt to get their money back.

Unless 3rd party cover was provided, everyone is at risk of a potential large bill from repairs to an Aventador.

That's f***ing ludicrous and outrageous in equal measure.