The everlasting ph1 ITB Build GREEN-BUILD STARTS AT PAGE 100

Nafoff · Mar 11, 2012

chrispy.clio said:
Hia big balls, is your car gona be finished by Augaust any time. As I'm Booking some trackdays in Augaust and wanted to know if you might be reay then?

i want to say yes... once paint starts to go on it, it will be quite a quick turn around, but it still needs an exhaust and then a full engine loom, remap etc etc.... it shouldn't be too bad,
however i am going to guess no....
the car may end up taking a back seat, especially in august, i hope to be going to canada for a month july - august so that will massively sap the funds i already don't have....

Nafoff · Mar 17, 2012

another update then, it has been about 3 weeks since i have been down to work on the car, but it was nice to have a bit of a break.... feel that i am not far off paint now so thats good.
after coming to a natural finish trimming panels down the last time i was at the unit i planned today to mainly be a holesawing / swagering day...

so i set up, got all the tools i needed together and then set about turning my once beautiful car into a piece of cheese....
both doors were done first

i was going to follow this with the tailgate, but in the end decided against it, because of the nature of the swage already in the tailgate i would not be able to swage the holes i was going to make, at this point i also notice the holes i was going to make would be very close to the reverse (inner) of the outer panel, i did not want to damage this so i left it... all edges were then filed down / de-bured ready for the next stage

so with both doors done and deciding against working on the tailgate i then started to look at the swaging....boom, and straight into a problem, the swager i had made up had a very big collar on it, lining it up with the hole i realised that the collar would catch the base of the door... proper pain... however with a fair bit of patience, a small cutting disc and a proper aggressive belt sander the swager was modified...

and i then started turning these dirty holes into sexy holes

so with all the exterior panels done it was time to move onto the car, most of the holes were to be to the front cross member area but there are a couple elsewhere, i worked up each one at a time, hole-sawing the swaging,
front passenger corner

front drivers corner

and headlight support

and then onto the cross member itself, bloody hell that thing is thick.... a good double thinckness on the doors...
i got as far as holesawing these today, however i need a shorter bolt for my swager before i can get that in there, a job for another day then...

i had been keeping the holes all day long and decided to weight them out, turns out they are slightly heavier than a jar of Korma Paste at 350g's..... i expected more, oh well, just looks like i will have to starve myself pre-drive each time....ha, should be going down again next weekend, will finish the swaging and then will look at the interior and how i will be mounting the false floor.. then i think its pretty much ready for paint, good times

Jonny1*2 · Mar 17, 2012

Swiss cheese indeed. Good work

dmallett · Mar 18, 2012

Surprised at the little loss in weight

Looks good though!

Kenny.s · Mar 18, 2012

Good stuff, dont be disheartened by the seemingly minimal weight saving, it all counts!

As soon as you start saying, " there's not much weight to come out of that" or "there's no point doing that" you end up with a heavy car.

I weighed all the bits I saved from hole sawing too, think it was just over 500g's. I took out some of the captive nuts in the back of the car and the inner sills too.

DannyR · Mar 18, 2012

This gives me ideas

LewisTaylor · Mar 18, 2012

Good work mate. Where can i get a swagger from? Or is it something you had made?

I was talking about to someone about weight savings yesterday, and like Kenny says it all counts and all adds up, keep loosing little bits like that and its soon alot of weight.

I might have to copy your idea on the front cross member, was always worried it would weaken the chasis hole sawing that. I was going to do my door/ boot skins anyway, although i don't think i will be able to take as much out of the doors as i'm not man enough for polycarb windows lol, still want to open my window all the way when it's hot

Nafoff · Mar 18, 2012

Kenny.s said:
Good stuff, dont be disheartened by the seemingly minimal weight saving, it all counts!
As soon as you start saying, " there's not much weight to come out of that" or "there's no point doing that" you end up with a heavy car.
I weighed all the bits I saved from hole sawing too, think it was just over 500g's. I took out some of the captive nuts in the back of the car and the inner sills too.

ha, not dis-heartened at all mate, if anything i am looking for more things to hole-saw /swage (i find it very soothing, not sure why...does that make me weird?)
shame i can't do much more with the tailgate... but i don't want it too be a wibbly wobbly leaky piece of french tin... will look into the captive nuts...

LewisTaylor said:
Good work mate. Where can i get a swagger from? Or is it something you had made?
I was talking about to someone about weight savings yesterday, and like Kenny says it all counts and all adds up, keep loosing little bits like that and its soon alot of weight.
I might have to copy your idea on the front cross member, was always worried it would weaken the chasis hole sawing that. I was going to do my door/ boot skins anyway, although i don't think i will be able to take as much out of the doors as i'm not man enough for polycarb windows lol, still want to open my window all the way when it's hot

I had the swager's made up by a friend, someone gave me some CAD drawings and i went to him with those, you can by them on ebay i think but they are pretty expensive.
I was wondering myself about the cross member but thats the (w)hole (see what i did there) idea of the swager... it re-strengthens the panel, i am contemplating also doing the reverse of the cross member (engine bay side), where i can.. there is a few captive nuts in there so will have to see... it would make swagering them a hell of alot easier...

Silent_Scone · Mar 18, 2012

Swiss cheese.. Mmm. Looking good!
Lewis why don't you just get the thermomolded windows from P4P. They go into the original sliders like normal windows. Ive got them and they're perfect.

chrispy.clio · Mar 18, 2012

Great work on the holes. Looks pretty cool!

I may do a similar thing to my car.

2Damnsly Andy · Mar 18, 2012

HURRY UP AND GET IT PAINTED MAN!!!!

frenchthing · Mar 18, 2012

if anyone knows someone handy with a lathe i have the CAD drawings for these swaging tools... autoCAD format (or jpeg i thing somewhere)

swiss cheese looks nice but the 205 boys are still WAY ahead of you....

lol

Silent_Scone · Mar 18, 2012

Lol that's awesome

LewisTaylor · Mar 18, 2012

ph-reebone said:
I had the swager's made up by a friend, someone gave me some CAD drawings and i went to him with those, you can by them on ebay i think but they are pretty expensive.
I was wondering myself about the cross member but thats the (w)hole (see what i did there) idea of the swager... it re-strengthens the panel, i am contemplating also doing the reverse of the cross member (engine bay side), where i can.. there is a few captive nuts in there so will have to see... it would make swagering them a hell of alot easier...

Oh right i see, i'm not after one for a while as i have lots of other little jobs to do right now, so perhaps you can give me a shout once your done and i'll buy it off you

Silent_Scone said:
Swiss cheese.. Mmm. Looking good!
Lewis why don't you just get the thermomolded windows from P4P. They go into the original sliders like normal windows. Ive got them and they're perfect.

Nice one i didn't even know you could! Will look into that when i go down the windows route

Thanks mate

That 205 is awesome!

2Damnsly Andy · Mar 18, 2012

I was under the impression that 205's were made of swiss cheese anyway...

david hodson · Mar 18, 2012

Haha 205s are made from fag packets anyway never mind drilling holes in them

welshname · Mar 18, 2012

Who cares when you've got a full cage in? Makes no difference how sturdy the rest of the shell is.

Nafoff · Mar 18, 2012

frenchthing said:
if anyone knows someone handy with a lathe i have the CAD drawings for these swaging tools... autoCAD format (or jpeg i thing somewhere)
swiss cheese looks nice but the 205 boys are still WAY ahead of you....

lol

rhysbartley said:
Who cares when you've got a full cage in? Makes no difference how sturdy the rest of the shell is.

WTF Banana's....ha, thats crazy, would still like some form of protection from the shell though, that does look PAP too, depends how much of a tart you are too i suppose,

LewisTaylor said:
Oh right i see, i'm not after one for a while as i have lots of other little jobs to do right now, so perhaps you can give me a shout once your done and i'll buy it off you
Nice one i didn't even know you could! Will look into that when i go down the windows route Thanks mate
That 205 is awesome!

yep, keep me informed mate, i may sell or i may decide to keep mine, either way i may be able to sort getting some more made up

frenchthing · Mar 19, 2012

That car was used in sprinting and hillclimbing iirc...

Weight is the enemy so: function > form lol

2Damnsly Andy · Mar 19, 2012

Surely if weight is that important a factor you'd space frame the car and save a shed load of weight.

frenchthing · Mar 19, 2012

2Damnsly said:
Surely if weight is that important a factor you'd space frame the car and save a shed load of weight.

Depends on class rules and of course budget

Nafoff · Mar 20, 2012

hhmmm that 205 is crazy.... i fully understand function > form, i still want mine to look vaguely tidy.... that may be my downfall in the future....
however i spotted this earlier which has got me thinking..... will scope it on saturday

as i do love hole sawing and swaging soooo much

BIGASH · Mar 21, 2012

Haha that looks awesome Neil

I wonder how light you could get it if you go to town on it! I think this swaging is infectious I want to attack mine lol

Kenny.s · Mar 21, 2012

It's stangely satisfying chopping weight out and while flaring the holes does help put some strength back you need to draw the line somewhere.
It's also worth bearing in mind that if the car is intended to be used competitively, the technical regs for most championships will follow the MSA blue book. Even if it's a track car, imho it's still wise to build the car with some consideration for the regs especially regards fuel systems etc.

The following sections being applicable in this instance

12.4.

The chassis or unitary construction must remain to the manufacturer’s original specification in construction and material within the wheel hub centres with the exception of the following.

12.4.1.

Re-positioning of suspension pick-up points and engine mountings are permitted.

12.4.2.

Inner wheel arches only may be modified to allow the attachment of damper mountings.

12.4.3.

It is only permitted to make holes for the passage of cables, fuel, water, oil, hydraulic, instrument or fire extinguisher lines as per Vehicle Regulations. All redundant holes must be covered with metal plates.

12.4.4.

Reinforcing of the chassis is allowed.

12.4.5.

Bulkheads and/or inner wings may be modified to permit the clearance of the induction system. This shall be understood to include air induction ducting,manifolding, trumpets/ram pipes for engine carburation or fuel injection system only. A maximum clearance dimension of 7.75cm will be allowed for any protrusion, but only in the engine compartment.

So basically anything that you do to the bodyshell needs to comply with those rules, otherwise you need to consult the eligibility scruitineer for the series you are running in and present your intentions and reasons to them.

If there's a valid technical or safety reason for what you want to do they will nearly always allow it, such as removing the standard seat mounts and replacing with suitably sized t45 or cds tubing, but if your only reason for doing something is to make the car lighter they normally take a dim view.

joshhicky · Mar 21, 2012

Them wheels are ace this car is going to look the business

Nafoff · Mar 21, 2012

Kenny.s said:
It's stangely satisfying chopping weight out and while flaring the holes does help put some strength back you need to draw the line somewhere.
It's also worth bearing in mind that if the car is intended to be used competitively, the technical regs for most championships will follow the MSA blue book. Even if it's a track car, imho it's still wise to build the car with some consideration for the regs especially regards fuel systems etc.

The following sections being applicable in this instance

12.4.
The chassis or unitary construction must remain to the manufacturer’s original specification in construction and material within the wheel hub centres with the exception of the following.
12.4.1.
Re-positioning of suspension pick-up points and engine mountings are permitted.
12.4.2.
Inner wheel arches only may be modified to allow the attachment of damper mountings.
12.4.3.
It is only permitted to make holes for the passage of cables, fuel, water, oil, hydraulic, instrument or fire extinguisher lines as per Vehicle Regulations. All redundant holes must be covered with metal plates.
12.4.4.
Reinforcing of the chassis is allowed.
12.4.5.
Bulkheads and/or inner wings may be modified to permit the clearance of the induction system. This shall be understood to include air induction ducting,manifolding, trumpets/ram pipes for engine carburation or fuel injection system only. A maximum clearance dimension of 7.75cm will be allowed for any protrusion, but only in the engine compartment.

So basically anything that you do to the bodyshell needs to comply with those rules, otherwise you need to consult the eligibility scruitineer for the series you are running in and present your intentions and reasons to them.

If there's a valid technical or safety reason for what you want to do they will nearly always allow it, such as removing the standard seat mounts and replacing with suitably sized t45 or cds tubing, but if your only reason for doing something is to make the car lighter they normally take a dim view.

yep i don't want to go as crazy as the 205, i think i should really get hold of the bluebook, as of yet the rest of the car has followed quite a normal procedure so most should be ok, but i should get the blue book just incase,
note 12.4 about the wheel hub centres - does that mean anything within the wheelbase, if so that means anything over at each end is fair game???

its not something i am now thinking of going to town on, just thats how i read it....
does seem like the interior is out of bounds though from the above points

BIGASH · Mar 21, 2012

http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentviewarticle.asp?article=1122

Silent_Scone · Mar 21, 2012

the back end is going to be up in the air on this thing with that airbox at the front lol

Nafoff · Mar 22, 2012

BIGASH said:
http://www.msauk.org/site/cms/contentviewarticle.asp?article=1122

may have to have a good read of that by saturday (and more holesawing / swagering time)

Silent_Scone said:
the back end is going to be up in the air on this thing with that airbox at the front lol

hopefully there will be a fair bit more feeling out of the rear with the lightness and the ARB, none of the sudden snapping,
valver'esque handling would be perfect.....

Nafoff · Mar 24, 2012

UPDATE:
so again i had a day spent on the clio, it doesn't seem like i have really done that much today, but i haven't stopped...
so first job was to finish up with the front cross member, holes were drilled on the rear of the cross member to match the front, then both the holes in the front and rear of the cross member were swaged.... very happy with the outcome and another 144g's lost..... thats almost 500g's in just holes....lol

front

rear

that took up a good amount of time, i did start looking at the inner rear 3/4 panels but decided to leave it today until i can further investigate the blue book ruling as has been previously mentioned in this thread....
next up was to work on some templates for some carbon panels on the interior. I already have the panels for both the doors and the rear 3/4s but i do not for the tailgate so a template was made up, (obviously this will be replicated in carbon)

and next up the false floor for the drivers side, i will be raising the floor approx 1/2-1 inch, we have a good idea how we will do it without putting much weight back in.... quite excited about this part in particular...

there is really not that much to do anymore before paint... i think only welding work and then we are pretty much there....

bomber · Mar 25, 2012

Bang tidy, can't wait till paint then we can start getting it all back together again!

Silent_Scone · Mar 25, 2012

Madness. You will have to stick it on the scales when it's finished

G3 NYX · Mar 25, 2012

What is the false floor for?

bomber · Mar 25, 2012

Seating/foot position is a massive improvement with a raised floor among other things

Gray · Mar 25, 2012

I bet the cardboard is lighter than carbon fibre.... Why not keep that?

Nafoff · Mar 25, 2012

Silent_Scone said:
Madness. You will have to stick it on the scales when it's finished

i will be getting it weighed mate yeah.... hopefully somewhere in the 800-900 range i hope

G3 NYX said:
What is the false floor for?

bomber said:
Seating/foot position is a massive improvement with a raised floor among other things

what he said...

LewisTaylor · Mar 25, 2012

Question on the swaging... How do you get the back part of the swag inside your beam?

Nafoff · Mar 25, 2012

LewisTaylor said:
Question on the swaging... How do you get the back part of the swag inside your beam?

roll it in there between the 2 pieces.....

Tucks · Apr 4, 2012

'Wurzel' I demand to know what the hells going on with this.

Nafoff · Apr 6, 2012

looks like i am learning to WELD tomorrow......
watch this space

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