Ph1 172 Track Car. Next Year I Go Racing - Hopefully!

[mark123]

The regs, as on the web now, don't prohibit FI though - which I assume is a mistake.
They only say "based on the production unit from the manufacturers of the model to be raced" which is a bit vague. You could easily argue after bolting a turbo/supercharger on it is still based on the original engine.
Hope you get it sorted. Very good of James to opt for the invitation class.
James, the trouble with allowing FI cars, if you do go power to weight, is that you can over spec the engine/turbo but limit max power in the map to have flat power curve with max power from 3k rpm to the limiter which will never be achieved by NA cars.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Yes Mark, I've just found the regs too.
Completely different to when we discussed and finalised them.
I'm trying to sort it.
Whenever have you seen a championship/series run n/a cars against Fi cars of the same cc?

 

[Tony Hunter]

.

 

[sonny172cup]

Its funny, the regs are more open and less fixed than it was in 2013 when it started. i was really hoping that the refs would have been nailed for this season and to simply say "we will adjust them in 2016 " is a joke, as I fear thats what he will say, same as when the reg was last questioned about the PTWR vs engine capacity class issue.

 

[sonny172cup]

Regs aside, be interested to hear how your car drives, looks like you achieved some very good torque gains

 

[Mini182]

Took it for a little spin. Engine is both really good and disappointing at the same time if that makes sense.

To be honest it doesn't feel much different to what is was like last year. It's hard to explain it - It does feel quicker but there is no big hit of torque or anything like that, it just feels like it has a bit more power throughout the rev range.

I guess it's down to the fact it has a very large pulley on the charger so it isn't really spinning much.

In other news there is something very wrong with the diff. I know these gripper diffs are a bit clunky but something has happened to mine over the winter. The whole car clunks, shakes and vibrates from the drivetrain, more so when turning right, so something is definitely wrong. I will take the gearbox off tonight, get it to Martin at agency in the morning, then off to dave mac props to investigate the diff in the afternoon. Hopefully will be able to get it sorted in time for Brands.

 

[C l a r k e y]

Nice one James, shame about the diff. Hope you get it sorted and come to Brands after all you have been through recently. Looking forward to some company in class G.
Should be interesting with us both having new set ups, not even drove mine properly yet. Brands will be my test day now as no time and still not got car running properly.
We sorted the wiring last night but the car runs for 40 seconds and cuts out.

 

[sonny172cup]

Not good James, hope its all sorted. Are you running the same drive shafts as last year?

 

[neil a]

Sounds very similar to what recently happened to my gripper diff , car sat for a couple of months , I gave the box and oil change and on a quick test run it was really bad to the point the car was almost stopping.
My box has been at CTS for the last 4 weeks getting rebuilt but they couldn't find anything with the diff.

 

[Martin.]

Awesome build.

Very noble of you to go into the invitation class even after being accepted into class A.

Shame to hear about your diff issues 😧 makes me worried about trying mine!

I personally would have loved to watch your charged car go up against the big boy N/A builds. But I can understand the concerns, especially as people have spent so much sticking to N/A.

 

[Mini182]

Nice one James, shame about the diff. Hope you get it sorted and come to Brands after all you have been through recently. Looking forward to some company in class G.
Should be interesting with us both having new set ups, not even drove mine properly yet. Brands will be my test day now as no time and still not got car running properly.
We sorted the wiring last night but the car runs for 40 seconds and cuts out.

Cheers Clarkey, yes big shame about the diff I only had it refreshed last year as well. Looking forward to racing against you this season. I am in the same boat as you at the moment. I've not even driven the car properly yet, and I have never driven brands before either.

Not good James, hope its all sorted. Are you running the same drive shafts as last year?

Cheers Sonny. No I am now running the later setup with the intermediate bearing.

Sounds very similar to what recently happened to my gripper diff , car sat for a couple of months , I gave the box and oil change and on a quick test run it was really bad to the point the car was almost stopping.
My box has been at CTS for the last 4 weeks getting rebuilt but they couldn't find anything with the diff.

Sounds very similiar to my issue, was all good last year at Oulton. It's done nothing in between and now this.

Awesome build.

Very noble of you to go into the invitation class even after being accepted into class A.

Shame to hear about your diff issues 😧 makes me worried about trying mine!

I personally would have loved to watch your charged car go up against the big boy N/A builds. But I can understand the concerns, especially as people have spent so much sticking to N/A.

Cheers Martin, yeah it's a shame but I think it was the right decision. Just looking forward to some racing now :smile:

 

[sonny172cup]

So the newer drive shafts are they the cup ones with longer wishbones etc? Maybe its the shafts that are causing a problem with the diff? Anyway hope its all sorted for Brands, hate you to miss this race too.

 

[Russ Rallye]

What happened yesterday James? Turned up during qualifying to see you pulling off in a big cloud of smoke and obviously didn't make the race. Looked all around the paddock but couldn't see you so never got a chance for a chat. Would of been nice to see it race even though I don't agree with it in the series.
Hope whatever it was is a quick fix.
Russ

 

[C l a r k e y]

Gutted for you James, after all the effort put in.

 

[Cub.]

Sounds ominous, what happened?

Thanks for taking the EPAS and passing it on to Mr Hunter

 

[sonny172cup]

Yes shame mate, gutted for you. Would have been great to see how it goes in the race.

 

[Mini182]

Cheers guys. Yeah engine blew in quali after 2 laps! We stayed to watch the first race then headed off home as it was quite a long drive. Didn't really feel like hanging around as I wasn't in a very happy mood as you can imagine.

I have taken it out this morning and stripped it down, just uploading some pics now.

 

[neil a]

Have the ring lands went ? Know of a couple of supercharged engines that has happened to ?
Did you get to the bottom of the diff issue ?

 

[Mini182]

Brands Hatch Report

This one did not go well!

Arrived about 7pm Fri evening, set up next to Ian had a bit of a chat with a few people, a few beers, and a few laughs, the paddock was a very friendly place as usual. All was well with the world so we went to bed excited for the racing tomorrow.

Scruteneening

This is the first time the car has gone through scrutineering without a single issue, I guess we must be learning. The chap even commented how tidy everything was, he gave me a ticket and sent us on our way. I was very happy.

Qualifying

The car initially felt good, there was still a bit of an issue with the diff on right turns but not as bad as it was (I will be sending this back to gripper again as it still isn't right). Then half way through lap 3 the car lost power, then made a bang, a big cloud of smoke and the engine died. I managed to pull off the circuit in a place where I wouldn't affect quali parked up and watched everyone go round for the next 10 mins. I knew it was terminal but had to wait until I was towed back to the paddock to find out.


Ooo a big hole in the block, that's not supposed to be there!

And a few bit's on the sump guard.

Nothing we could do so we packed up, stayed to watch race 1, then left. Not sure who they were but felt very sorry for the 2 guys who collided on the grid, it looked a bit nasty. Hopefully they are both ok.



Sunday morning inspection

So this morning at about 10am we started to take the engine out.

All out by lunch time.

The hole went straight through the block.

Then we set about stripping it down to inspect the damage. I'll let the pics do the talking.

And a lonely looking engine bay

Pretty sure the culprit was the standard rod bolts. My own fault really, I couldn't get hold of a set of arp bolts when I needed them so just carried on without them.


So I am totally gutted, but that's racing I suppose.

Ian who is just down the road from me has kindly offered me a bottom end, but on inspection I have also bent a valve. So I am now after a complete secondhand engine if anyone knows of one near to Worcester.

 

[Cub.]

Proper job. Jeez.

Rod bolt 😧

Sorry to see this, assume the Rotrex etc is ok?

At least a standard replacement engine is relatively cheap, and you haven't lost a load of forged bits. That's the good thing about supercharged clio's, run a standard lump, goes pop, throw another one in.

Get those ARPs on order ASAP....

 

[Jamie86]

I still have that ph 1 lump of you want it

Shame to see this was interested to see lap times.

 

[C l a r k e y]

Sorry didn't get to see you James, we had issues Friday and kept busy Saturday.
What a mess!!!!!hope you get it sorted.

 

[dinger]

Although you know my feelings with regards to this, still not good to see,
Sell the charger, get a standard second hand engine and use the funds from the charger to put cams and throttle bodies on,
Come on mate, you know it makes sense,:smiley:

 

[neil a]

What was the result of your diff fault ? Did you end up having to strip your box last week ?

 

[Martin.]

Such a shame to hear this, was looking forward to watching you race against the others.

 

[Mini182]

Proper job. Jeez.

Rod bolt 😧

Sorry to see this, assume the Rotrex etc is ok?

At least a standard replacement engine is relatively cheap, and you haven't lost a load of forged bits. That's the good thing about supercharged clio's, run a standard lump, goes pop, throw another one in.

Get those ARPs on order ASAP....

Yep Rotrex and all other associated bits are fine. That was my plan if anything failed, just replace with another cheap standard engine. Think I better put some ARP's on it this time though.

Sorry didn't get to see you James, we had issues Friday and kept busy Saturday.
What a mess!!!!!hope you get it sorted.

No worries mate, yep it is a mess. Was a shame we didn't get to race. I am hoping to get it sorted in time for Thruxton though.

Although you know my feelings with regards to this, still not good to see,
Sell the charger, get a standard second hand engine and use the funds from the charger to put cams and throttle bodies on,
Come on mate, you know it makes sense,:smiley:

Haha not yet Dave. Going to stick with the charger for this year. Will probably end up having to do that next year though.

What was the result of your diff fault ? Did you end up having to strip your box last week ?

Looks like it was a faulty batch of clutch plates. Going to have some new ones installed.

Such a shame to hear this, was looking forward to watching you race against the others.

Yeah big shame. I think I could have done ok if it had all held together.

 

[BIGASH]

Did it show good pressure before the blow up with the oil thermostat open? Oil cooler pipes look abit thin?

 

[Mini182]

Did it show good pressure before the blow up with the oil thermostat open? Oil cooler pipes look abit thin?

Didn't really notice what pressure it was running before it went to be honest.

It did have very good pressure before though.

Would the diameter of the cooler pipes make a difference? Whatever didn't flow through them would just re-circulate wouldn't it?

 

[Chambers_RS]

Such a shame. Was hoping you'd do well with the new engine setup.

If the pipes where to thin they'd restrict the flow of oil causing pressure issues.

 

[Mini182]

Didn't think that was how it worked?

I mean when the stat is closed there is a very reduced flow through the pipes anyway. Any oil that didn't make it around the pipes and through the cooler would just flow through the filter and back off round the engine as per usual wouldn't it?

Sure smaller pipes would limit the flow of oil through the cooler but they shouldn't make any difference to overall oil flow round the engine should they?

 

[Tomotek]

Sorry to see the engine in bits mate!!.. never a happy sight...

Just to back up the comment James made....
When the oil is cold and the thermostat is closed, the oil can bypass the oil cooler and flow straight to the filter and into the engine.. however when the oil gets hot enough that the thermostat opens.. the valve inside closes off the bypass completely... Therefore ALL the oil has to pass through the oil cooler (what u want if the oil is getting too hot), therefore if the lines are to small then yes they can restrict the flow to the engine...

What diameter hose are you running to the cooler?

 

[Tony Hunter]

I'm with Dinger on this.
Like everybody, I hate to see an engine blow.

But you won't be able to use it next year anyway.
Didn't get chance to speak to you over the weekend.

 

[Mini182]

Sorry to see the engine in bits mate!!.. never a happy sight...

Just to back up the comment James made....
When the oil is cold and the thermostat is closed, the oil can bypass the oil cooler and flow straight to the filter and into the engine.. however when the oil gets hot enough that the thermostat opens.. the valve inside closes off the bypass completely... Therefore ALL the oil has to pass through the oil cooler (what u want if the oil is getting too hot), therefore if the lines are to small then yes they can restrict the flow to the engine...

What diameter hose are you running to the cooler?

Hmm as it is a very small cooler the pipes are only 8mm with -6 connections. I didn't think that was how it worked. I had the same concerns on the pipe size but thought that any oil that didn't go around the cooler would just continue to flow through through the filter as it would under normal circumstances. I could have made a bit of a school boy error there. I didn't notice any drop in pressure though.

I'm with Dinger on this.
Like everybody, I hate to see an engine blow.

But you won't be able to use it next year anyway.
Didn't get chance to speak to you over the weekend.

All the more reason to enjoy it this year Tony :wink:

I did pop over to see you at lunch time but you looked like you had your hands full changing the driveshaft so we just left you to it.

 

[NorthloopCup]

You need -10 hose and fittings for an oil cooler ideally.

 

[Mini182]

You need -10 hose and fittings for an oil cooler ideally.

Going to be changing them to 1/2 bsp mate.

Don't think small cooler hoses were to blame for the failure as I didn't notice any pressure drop. Also my oil pressure gauge has an audible alarm for low pressure as well.

Never the less I think I made a mistake with the smaller pipes, bigger pipes and better flow probably isn't a bad idea.

 

[NorthloopCup]

If I were you I'd whip the crank out to see if it's spun any bearings. That'll near enough confirm if it was a pressure issue or not mate.

 

[Tomotek]

Going to be changing them to 1/2 bsp mate.

Don't think small cooler hoses were to blame for the failure as I didn't notice any pressure drop. Also my oil pressure gauge has an audible alarm for low pressure as well.

1/2 bsp sounds a alot better... Least your pressure gauge is post oil cooler, so yeah if it didn't activate your audible alarm It was probably fine.

What boost are you running when you say 'low'.. have you done anything with the compression ratio?.. like you said, guessing standard rods/bolts didn't appreciate the extra pressure?

 

[Mini182]

If I were you I'd whip the crank out to see if it's spun any bearings. That'll near enough confirm if it was a pressure issue or not mate.

Already done that mate, and no spun bearings apart from No.2 of course, but there was nothing left of that one at all!

1/2 bsp sounds a alot better... Least your pressure gauge is post oil cooler, so yeah if it didn't activate your audible alarm It was probably fine.

What boost are you running when you say 'low'.. have you done anything with the compression ratio?.. like you said, guessing standard rods/bolts didn't appreciate the extra pressure?

Very low, about 0.5bar. Compression ratio is standard, engine is totally standard. The only thing I will change on the next engine is the rod bolts to ARP's.

 

[Tomotek]

Very low, about 0.5bar. Compression ratio is standard, engine is totally standard. The only thing I will change on the next engine is the rod bolts to ARP's.

0.5bar will still increase your compression ratio from:
Standard CR - 11.1:1
0.5bar CR - 16.5:1
which isn't mega low IMO. (It would be 'very low boost' if you had a lower static compression ratio like most forced induction engines have)

For comparison the McLaren GT3 cars run 8.9:1 static CR
Max boost 1.6~1.7bar giving a 22.9:1 CR ... but those parts are far from standard, to cope with the boost levels (and they still go POP from time to time haha)

Out of interest what boost/CR levels can you run without going to Forged pistons and conrods on the F4R engine?

 

[Tomotek]

We shouldn't be discussing this though as you should be N/A anyway :tonguewink: haha