engine differences ? 172-182-197-200

[Beasley Clio182]

It was more a discussion with a friend who's looking at a Clio 200 soon, but he was asking what are the differences between them and my 182 engine wise, and got me thinking whats the main differences between 172- 182 -197 - 200 clios bar the obvious shape and obviously power each has , ie what makes them quicker ?
Im under the impression that they all run the f4r engine? ( well i know 172-182 do) so what are the main differences between a f4r in a 172 all the way up?
Sorry if this has been asked before but i couldnt find anything on it and id like to know !
Im under the impression the difference between a 172 and 182 was a 4-2-1 manifold air box and map is this right ? and what is the rest ?
Thanks
Dean

 

[Kyle 86]

The only diffrence between 172/182 is the manifold no map involved but the 172 has a better throttle body as for the engines they are all F4R i think the diffrence is something to do with the head the bottom ends are the same!

 

[Kyle 86]

Chip MK1 will awnser this for ya he knows these cars extreamly well

 

[Beasley Clio182]

Cheers for the quick reply ahh i was told a MAP aswell :S oh well like i know looking forward to finding out the real differences and no rumours !

 

[Beasley Clio182]

PS why is the 172 throttle body better ? and is it a phase 1 or phase 2 throttle body your on about?

 

[.Stevo.C.]

PS why is the 172 throttle body better ? and is it a phase 1 or phase 2 throttle body your on about?

The cable throttle is better on ph1 172 than ph2 172 & 182 as they have fly by wire throttle.

 

[Kyle 86]

No worries man no map that i no off i had a 182 a few years back i miss the comfort of it ull get the lads on here later and they will tell ya everything lol

 

[Kyle 86]

Ph1 TB is better

 

[Beasley Clio182]

Cheers stevo and guigsy ! i love my 182 awesome car , and to think i went look at a st170 and came back with that haha good decision i think haha

 

[Kyle 86]

Haha gd decision pal ST 170's are ok but no where near as fun and quick as a 172/182

 

[jesus]

Haha gd decision pal ST 170's are ok but no where near as fun and quick as a 172/182

Who are you kidding... ST170s are pap! :dead:

 

[Chip-mk1]

Phase 1 has bigger exhaust ports on the heads.
Other than that all 172/182 core engines are basically the same, the differences are just external parts like the exhaust manifold and cable or electronic throttle etc.

The 197 has high compression pistons, it also has slightly bigger chambers in the head (although the pistons are more high comp than the head is low comp, so overall effect is a raise in compression), and bigger inlet ports, and a dephasor that is variable not just on off.
The cams in the 197 are slightly hotter too.

I believe the 200 is very similar if not identical to the 197 but Ive not ever had one apart so far, I know the map is quite a lot different though.


The block has different bolt spacing for the gearbox is the reason that people dont generally just bolt a 197 lump in, as obviously if not for that fact it would be a really sensible option.

 

[Kyle 86]

Who are you kidding... ST170s are pap! :dead:

There not exactly great they drive nice as do all focuses but like i said no where near as good as a clio!

 

[Chip-mk1]

There not exactly great they drive nice as do all focuses but like i said no where near as good as a clio!

RS Clio definately is a little more performance focussed IMHO

 

[Kyle 86]

Phase 1 has bigger exhaust ports on the heads.
Other than that all 172/182 core engines are basically the same, the differences are just external parts like the exhaust manifold and cable or electronic throttle etc.

The 197 has high compression pistons, it also has slightly bigger chambers in the head (although the pistons are more high comp than the head is low comp, so overall effect is a raise in compression), and bigger inlet ports, and a dephasor that is variable not just on off.
The cams in the 197 are slightly hotter too.

I believe the 200 is very similar if not identical to the 197 but Ive not ever had one apart so far, I know the map is quite a lot different though.


The block has different bolt spacing for the gearbox is the reason that people dont generally just bolt a 197 lump in, as obviously if not for that fact it would be a really sensible option.

I said you no your stuff chip haha gd stuff man

 

[Kyle 86]

RS Clio definately is a little more performance focussed IMHO

It certainly is bud

 

[Beasley Clio182]

Cheers chip thats great covered everything i wanted to know !! haha
As for the ST 170 i agree i had a 53 reg 172 for about a week only done 40k and bottom end gave up :s luckily it was from a dealer and afetr much argument i got my money back , id seen a st170 at auction and refused to get another clio , went and saw the 182 and was like ... il have a quick look haha the rest is history , but proved to me my 172 had 40k and was knackered my 182 has 96k and still going ! mileage aint the be all ad end all !

 

[Chip-mk1]

F4R engines really dont seem to mind mileage.

My mrs one let go of the belt at 140K and when I rebuilt it I really couldnt tell it had done 140K instead of 40K, all still looked fresh inside, we re-ringed it and upgraded a few bits etc just as a matter of course as I had it apart anyway but TBH it really didnt actually need it yet.

 

[Beasley Clio182]

F4R engines really dont seem to mind mileage.

My mrs one let go of the belt at 140K and when I rebuilt it I really couldnt tell it had done 140K instead of 40K, all still looked fresh inside, we re-ringed it and upgraded a few bits etc just as a matter of course as I had it apart anyway but TBH it really didnt actually need it yet.

Yeah whens its apart be silly not too! i think as long as you keep on top of the belts and oil and filters they arent bad engines at all
Thinking in a few years maybe upgrade to a 197-200 see what happens

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yeah whens its apart be silly not too! i think as long as you keep on top of the belts and oil and filters they arent bad engines at all
Thinking in a few years maybe upgrade to a 197-200 see what happens

If you mean upgrade to the car, they are lovely motors and the handling is epic but the fuel economy is worse than the 172 and they are no quicker in a straight line.
If you mean upgrade to a 197 engine, you can either rebuild it into a 172 block to get round the gearbox issue, or you drill and tap it to fit the 172 box I believe although I havent personally done that im just repeating what I have heard.

 

[Beasley Clio182]

If you mean upgrade to the car, they are lovely motors and the handling is epic but the fuel economy is worse than the 172 and they are no quicker in a straight line.
If you mean upgrade to a 197 engine, you can either rebuild it into a 172 block to get round the gearbox issue, or you drill and tap it to fit the 172 box I believe although I havent personally done that im just repeating what I have heard.

I mean the whole car , im a mechanic my self and cant seen the point in all the work ! if your really want to yeah but the 197 handle better as you say may aswell go the whole hog and get the car lol

 

[Chip-mk1]

I mean the whole car , im a mechanic my self and cant seen the point in all the work ! if your really want to yeah but the 197 handle better as you say may aswell go the whole hog and get the car lol

The extra weight puts me off. Hurts performance and economy, so I dont see them as an upgrade overall.

 

[Dan519]

The only diffrence between 172/182 is the manifold no map involved but the 172 has a better throttle body as for the engines they are all F4R i think the diffrence is something to do with the head the bottom ends are the same!

Ph1's have a 30% larger exhaust port, and the CNC machining on the inlet port is marginally different (it's very slight).
ph2 172 and 182 uses the same throttle body
There certainly is a difference in the maps too, infact there's several versions of the ECU with slight changes.
There's differences between earlier and later cranks, but not of any proven advantage either way.
197's have a tiny exhaust port, the same as a ph2 172 or 182, but a huge inlet. The con-rods in a 197/200 are different to the earlier F4R, but the same as the megane F4RT.
another big difference is the VVT mechanism. a 172/182 uses a switch where the pulley sits in one of 2 positions, in phase, or out of phase (hence dephaser) 16 degrees between the 2.
a 197/200 is a fully variable vvt system where small cam angle changes are made via oil pressure and solenoid operation over a range of approx 45 degrees.
Compression is different via head and pistons design, and inlet and exhaust manifolds are also different (197 manifold is a step backwards IMO )

 

[scotty10]

can a 197 engine be put into a 182 ? and would it be an expensive job

 

[Chip-mk1]

can a 197 engine be put into a 182 ? and would it be an expensive job

As I have already said mate, it wont bolt directly to the 182 box, so you need to either adapt it to fit, or just rebuild the 197 engine into your 182 block (you only really need the head and the pistons, which you can do without even taking your engine out of the car)
You would also need to use the 172 dephasor, and possibly exhaust manifold as im not sure if the 197 one will fit in the pay properly or not.
You can use the 197 inlet though which is a good improvement, although im not sure on the clearance on the bonnet on a phase 2 (phase 1 it will fit so requires a bit of fettling)

I have a 197 head on my phase1 turbo for example:

 

[Kyle 86]

Ph1's have a 30% larger exhaust port, and the CNC machining on the inlet port is marginally different (it's very slight).
ph2 172 and 182 uses the same throttle body
There certainly is a difference in the maps too, infact there's several versions of the ECU with slight changes.
There's differences between earlier and later cranks, but not of any proven advantage either way.
197's have a tiny exhaust port, the same as a ph2 172 or 182, but a huge inlet. The con-rods in a 197/200 are different to the earlier F4R, but the same as the megane F4RT.
another big difference is the VVT mechanism. a 172/182 uses a switch where the pulley sits in one of 2 positions, in phase, or out of phase (hence dephaser) 16 degrees between the 2.
a 197/200 is a fully variable vvt system where small cam angle changes are made via oil pressure and solenoid operation over a range of approx 45 degrees.
Compression is different via head and pistons design, and inlet and exhaust manifolds are also different (197 manifold is a step backwards IMO )

Wow....Great info thou dan

 

[Kyle 86]

As for the mileage as chip says they do cope well with the mileage my old 182 had 100k on her and was still a cracking lump 2 of my pals are on 120k + and theres a few on here way past the 160+ club u look after the engine and it will look after you bud

 

[Beasley Clio182]

Cheers for the info dan !! gives me a better idea of whats what !!
I see why people upgrade to a 197 head and cams ! Cracking idea !

 

[Chip-mk1]

Cheers for the info dan !! gives me a better idea of whats what !!
I see why people upgrade to a 197 head and cams ! Cracking idea !

If you swap the head without the pistons the cr will go down and you are likely to lose power not gain it.
The cams are a good upgrade though. We run them in my mrs clio. Really helps at the top of the rev range.

 

[Jakey92]

If you swap the head without the pistons the cr will go down and you are likely to lose power not gain it.
The cams are a good upgrade though. We run them in my mrs clio. Really helps at the top of the rev range.

Is the 197 inlet manifold a direct fit for the 1*2 head?

 

[Chip-mk1]

I pressume the 197 inlet manifold will not fit a 1*2 head?

Not directly no, and its easier to swap the 197 head on than to try and modify the 172 to suit the 197 manifold, but like I mentioned before, it will drop the CR slightly, so really you need the 197 pistons as well.

 

[Owen_m]

Just a question, if you had the 172 pistons and 197 head and cams etc so running lower compression would that not be a good basis for a boosted engine? if the rods can take it?

I'm not sure if they just curious !

 

[Jakey92]

Not directly no, and its easier to swap the 197 head on than to try and modify the 172 to suit the 197 manifold, but like I mentioned before, it will drop the CR slightly, so really you need the 197 pistons as well.

Many thanks for sharing your knowledge. I'm looking to buy a 172 cup in February when I turn 21 and I was looking at keeping it OEM+ style. I have been reading up on different combinations. So would it be best to stick on a 197 head (keeping with the 197 inlet and cams etc) but also have the 197 con rods & pistons and 182 Manifold & cat? That is assuming that the inlet will fit under the Phase 2 bonnet

 

[Chip-mk1]

Just a question, if you had the 172 pistons and 197 head and cams etc so running lower compression would that not be a good basis for a boosted engine? if the rods can take it?

I'm not sure if they just curious !

That is what I had on my turbo phase 1, with a megane gasket as well to also drop the CR (the head only makes a very small difference)

 

[Chip-mk1]

Many thanks for sharing your knowledge. I'm looking to buy a 172 cup in February when I turn 21 and I was looking at keeping it OEM+ style. I have been reading up on different combinations. So would it be best to stick on a 197 head (keeping with the 197 inlet and cams etc) but also have the 197 con rods & pistons and 182 Manifold & cat? That is assuming that the inlet will fit under the Phase 2 bonnet

Yes I think that is a great way to build a 172 engine, using all the 197 bits but with the 172 ecu/loom/dephasor to keep it simple to wire into the car.

 

[Jakey92]

Yes I think that is a great way to build a 172 engine, using all the 197 bits but with the 172 ecu/loom/dephasor to keep it simple to wire into the car.

Awesome! Cheers for that, you are the exact reason why I joined this forum

 

[Chip-mk1]

Awesome! Cheers for that, you are the exact reason why I joined this forum

Flol, thanks I think.

 

[m1k3172ff]

so would a set of 197 cams be any good in my 172 engine with the 172 head and dephaser and 172 bottom end as i am on the lookout for a set if this combo is any good and maybe machining the exhaust ports to the size of the ph1 ports, but what manifold should i use from there.

 

[Chip-mk1]

so would a set of 197 cams be any good in my 172 engine with the 172 head and dephaser and 172 bottom end as i am on the lookout for a set if this combo is any good and maybe machining the exhaust ports to the size of the ph1 ports, but what manifold should i use from there.

Yes they will work well, but you need to get them timed in by someone who knows how to do so, on the standard marks they dont work particularly well.
182 exhaust manifold is the best of the bunch IMHO, although 172 one is fine too, 172 size ports on 182 exhaust manifold is fine.

 

[m1k3172ff]

right so who do u rekon could time in the 197 cams for me