He'd need to know the RPM, then he could work out the power.
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Congrats to DanPl6 on cracking 200bhp (rs2 + 197 cams)
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Sir_Dave
ClioSport Trader
From reading that article, power is calculated as:
Bhp = (Torque x rpm) / 5252
Bhp = (Torque x rpm) / 5252
Sir_Dave
ClioSport Trader
Just checked a few of my graphs as well, feel like ive learnt something tonight!!! Circa 5252rpm crossover for both:
M3's have such a beautiful curve ...
And the ShedTrophy (now Kelvs):
XC90, 330d, Trophy’s
Dave, your equation is pretty much spot on indeed.
440lbft or converted to 596nm.
596x3400 = 2,026,400
2,026,400 / 5252 = 385.83 BHP.
im suitably impressed, that my new lesson for the evening.
Cheers guys
BoatNonce
ClioSport Club Member
Great work, a genuine N/A 200bhp!
I suspect that this thread will be PM'ed to various eBay sellers for years to come.
I suspect that this thread will be PM'ed to various eBay sellers for years to come.
F31 35d, Berlingo Na
Dave, your equation is pretty much spot on indeed.
440lbft or converted to 596nm.
596x3400 = 2,026,400
2,026,400 / 5252 = 385.83 BHP.
im suitably impressed, that my new lesson for the evening.
Cheers guys
Never seen curves like that before. What was that like to drive?
182cup & 172 racecar
I was just thinking the same.
XC90, 330d, Trophy’s
Guys, in ref to my graph, I'm sure at some point this morning Chip will add a more understandable answer and reasoning as to why the type of engine peaks like that.
but from experience, it's never been that rare to have an already torquey engine which is also turbo'd to hit its peak torque that low down the rev range, obviously as it tails of and the horses rise it still crosses over, which still seems to be at 5252rpm.
but from experience, it's never been that rare to have an already torquey engine which is also turbo'd to hit its peak torque that low down the rev range, obviously as it tails of and the horses rise it still crosses over, which still seems to be at 5252rpm.
If you quote the rpm that torque was made at then it is a simple sum to find bhp at the same point, but generally peak power will be later than peak torque not at the same point as it (peak power can NEVER be at lower rpm than at peak torque)
so on dans for example the 143lbft peak is at 6370rpm at which point it only makes 173bhp, but with the torque not dropping as quickly as the revs are rising it means that it makes more power further up. Its making just under 136lbft still at 7740 in order to crack 200 for example.
Think of torque as the amount of work done in one revolution of the engine, and bhp as the amount of work done per unit of time.
So as an analogy if you were moving water uphill on a machine with cups that scoop up water the torque would be the size of the cup you were using, the rpm would be how many cups were filling per minute and the bhp would be how much water you actually had the power to move in a minute.
So torque is only useful when connected with speed too, give me a 4ft bar and I will happily generate 200lbft of torque with my bare hands but I won't be able to do so quickly enough to power a car. Lol.
The scales aren't in bhp and lbft is most common reason.
It peaks like that because the turbo and engine spec aren't suitable for making torque further up the rev range. You get to the point the turbo is flowing pretty much all it can, at which point the bhp will effectively flatten off, at which point torque drops at the rate rpm increases. Wrc engines with a restrictor do this massively, the bhp just totally flat lines and the torque falls off inversely as rpm increases.
The key factor in deciding acceleration is torque at the wheels divided by the mass of the car (f=ma) and torque at the wheels is directly related to bhp of the engine as the gearbox allows you to gain mechanical advantage to mean that 100lbft at 8krpm is twice as much torque at the wheels as 100lbft at 4krpm.
A current f1 engines makes roughly 3 times as much power as torque!
Pulls like hell initially then as revs rise it just feels like it does on its arse and the engine just doesn't really want to go. I hate engines like that for track use, diesel turbos are very much like that.
In a 4wd car or something big and with lots of grip like a new focus rs and it's not so bad but put an engine like that in a lightwieght trackday fwd hatch like a clio and it wheelspin at peak torque then as you back off a bit to regain traction it starts to pull a bit then just dies. Hateful!
Ph1 172 & Clio DCi
Chips given a perfect example. With this new information people should now understand why peak torque is relatively useless to brag about on a forum with and why the RS2 having such a supposed "flat and boring" torque curve is actually epic!
XC90, 330d, Trophy’s
TBH Chip, it pulls like an absolute train, agreed the initiall kick up the arse that you get as it comes on boost does tail away as the revs rise, but the thing certainly doesnt ever feel like it wants to give up going.
once its conquered its attempts at pulling the front tyres apart and you start to gather mommentum, its all to allarming at how quickly the end of the speedo seems to be aproaching.
if you hadnt already gathered Chip, this is the graph for the green frs.
its about 4 weeks after i bought it, and Rob @ SCC fitted the upgrade kit from Revo, a few more treats have been added since but never bothered heading back to the rollers.
Mike, cheers buddy.
i certainly wasnt questioning you atall, more questioning the 'hows and whys' to equating a figure from the torque achieved.
ive always classed msyelf as fairly knowledgable with cars and engines, but sometimes you read things online and it highlights how little i really understand.
once its conquered its attempts at pulling the front tyres apart and you start to gather mommentum, its all to allarming at how quickly the end of the speedo seems to be aproaching.
if you hadnt already gathered Chip, this is the graph for the green frs.
its about 4 weeks after i bought it, and Rob @ SCC fitted the upgrade kit from Revo, a few more treats have been added since but never bothered heading back to the rollers.
Mike, cheers buddy.
i certainly wasnt questioning you atall, more questioning the 'hows and whys' to equating a figure from the torque achieved.
ive always classed msyelf as fairly knowledgable with cars and engines, but sometimes you read things online and it highlights how little i really understand.
Ph1 172 & Clio DCi
Kelv! That fine mate! I could see exactly where you were coming from. By the time I got to the thread chip had already explained it. I am hopeless at explaining things on the forum. Chip is awesome at it, so it's properly best he did!
Are you doing the equation using a LBFT figure, or a NM figure?
the theory above needs to be converted from NM's.
so you may have to do an equation before you do the equation
I converted it to NM first of all, then did the equation after that.. Both the graphs have the cross over at 5252ish. So just wondering what was going wrong?
Ph1 172 & Clio DCi
Every single dyno graph out there will cross at 5252 unless the sync is out between the wheel speed and the dyno.
Ph1 172 & Clio DCi
Double post. Tapatalk fail!!!
Even if the sync is out it will still show on the graph at 5252 as crossing, but the values will just be plotted in the wrong place.
If the sync was out by 10% on Dan's for example it would look like it made 157lbft at 5600rpm, and 200bhp at 7200.
Having driven lots of cars with similar graphs, I actually disagree with you there, thats almost an identical graph to a typical T34 Escos for example.
Obviously you have the fact that it a 2.5 turbo so even when its "died off" its still got more way torque than a n/a clio is ever going to etc, so its a relative term but there is still a very noticeable drop off in how hard it pulls further up the rev range than lower down, so although the car is still quick the engine is certainly less willing to go at high rpm than in the midrange.
Put in up a hill in 4th at 3Krpm and floor it and you'll notice what I mean.
I've enjoyed reading this thread, some good information in it.
You mean in terms of the lines themselves crossing I take it?
As the values WILL still cross at 5252 even if the scales are different, so long as they are BHP and LBFT of course.
yeecup
ClioSport Club Member
mk8Fiesta ST,172 cup
i see this is now 10 pages of dan and chip blowing smoke up the rs2's arsehole again and anybody who doesnt agree is a "mong" the only mongs are the ones who would buy this crap. its such a cracking product the company went bust. says it all. oh and lol at the torque, jesus.
Any proof that JMS went bust or is that libel?
imprezaworks
ClioSport Club Member
Mk5 Golf GTI :)
Dont hold back tell it like it is lol
As far as I am aware no company involved with the RS2 has ever gone bust? Which company are you referring to? JMS closed down when Tom left the business, but going bust would imply it was forced to closed due to financial difficulties, not that it closed its doors with the books in the black. And Jenvey who make the base manifolds are still trading, as are the company that make the carbon bits, so what company are you actually on about or are you literally just making up random nonsense as you dont have the inteligence to make any actual valid point?
You just dont seem to be able to post accurately about ANYTHING so far in this thread mate.
Really weird the way you seem to be on some sort of campaign to discredit a product that clearly is working very well, is there some reason for that? Did you have an uncle with the initials JMS who used to touch you as a child and hence it brings back painful memories perhaps? As TBH mate I am struggling to see why you would feel the need to keep posting nonsense about a product, why not do what I do with products that dont particuarly tickle my fancy and either post a well structured reasoning as to why you dont like them or simply not buy them and let other people do whatever they want?
Its really weird the way that a small number of people on this forum who have opted to buy cams (or merely want to do so in the future like yourself) instead of upgrading the inlet manifold act like football fans slagging off the opposing team whenever an RS2 is mentioned.
People are getting called "mongs" etc not because they are disagreeing but because they are simply failing to understand what the product actually does, its not aimed at increasing the peak torque, its aimed at allowing the engine to hold onto more torque at the top of the rev range, so when people come along and point out that it doesnt do something that no one has ever claimed it does, they do indeed look like argumentative mongs with no useful point to make, its like me joing threads about a lsd type diff to say that it doesnt make the main shaft in the gearbox any stronger when you fit one, of course not and no one has claimed it does, but it is useful for stopping wheelspin so people buy it for that instead.
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LOL! Nice work yeecup.
Sir_Dave
ClioSport Trader
Its libel. Tom left JMS partly as he couldnt be bothered dealing with morons like yeecup and/or the bullsh1t that comes from this forum.
Selling RS2's doesnt make you enough money to have to deal with such f*ckwits on a daily basis. Hence James no longer sells them either.
Oh, and the part about not liking the flat torque curve, even now its been explained? Jesus Christ.
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yeecup
ClioSport Club Member
mk8Fiesta ST,172 cup
any proof they didnt go bust? anyone got access to their accounts? answer me this, if the rs2 is/was such a good product why has no other company decided to continue to produce it? i mean surely if it was that good somebody would be snapping up the rights to sell it? maybe i should go on dragons den with it, explain how for a mere £1500 you can strap a magical inlet with an open cone filter stuck on the end of it and you will hold more torque throughout the rev range, completely transforming your little clio into the car it should always have been. the evidence? well we have some graphs on cliosport and some guru who calls himself chip than can back it up, and a handful of gullible jokers with too much money to spare cause they still live at home with mummy who say its great and transformed the car, can i have your investment now please dragons??
imprezaworks
ClioSport Club Member
Mk5 Golf GTI :)
flol, you are really passionate about this arnt you?
I know James quite well, Tom didnt want to still be involved in it and went off to do something totally different for a living, so they closed the company down, and in doing so James ended up owning the rights to the manifold, which he then carried on making with his new company, Stone Automotive.
They did Stone automotive, but as the value of the cars has fallen people are less keen to spend big money on an inlet, so at the moment due to a lack of demand he hasnt bothered making any for stock, but as Mike has mentioned if there was a group buy it would be worth him making some more.
You seem to think that wether a product is a financial success reflects on if the product is good or not though thats just crazy to think that way, something well designed and expensive to reproduce is often not the most commerically successful product, mcdoands sell more beef than goucho, but I still maintain the fillet at goucho is better than a big mac!
James hasnt expressed any interest in selling the rights, although I do know a couple of people have made tentative offers anyway which he has rejected.
A low profit inlet small volume manufatured inlet manifold isnt the sort of thing they are interested in, so I dont think that is a good idea TBH.
In fact even if you started up a company making throttle bodies I am sure they wouldnt be interested in it either, but that wont stop me using throttle bodies on my car as I dont think that wether or not a product makes loads of profit is what determines if its good or, I just go by the actual results, but you dont seem quite bright enough to do that so feel free to carry on thinking that the sales prove that mcdonalds are the best chefs in the world, Im sure your mrs will love it when you take her there for her birthday.
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