Yay or Nay...Camber bolts

[callum_bell]

basically changed the suspension all round balljoints etc and brand new cup shocks and eibach sportlines and now pondering over the idea of fitting camber bolts anyone recommend using them, and whats peoples opinions on them, car is for road use(sometimes vigorously) car will probably never be near a track.

 

[Adam G]

Don't bother for only road use.

 

[Jeffie]

^^ Huh why not? Being able to adjust camber has nothing to do with hitting the track or not.

 

[Adam G]

^^ Huh why not? Being able to adjust camber has nothing to do with hitting the track or not.

Please enlighten me on why you know better than Renault test drivers, that spent hours setting up the suspension to get the best compromise? Other than you're one of those that like it "slammed"

 

[Jeffie]

Yeah nice one. You said it yourself smartass, compromise.

Don't forget things like hitting potholes and throwing the alignment out. But you know better than everyone else.

 

[Adam G]

I'm not going to reduce to that level but never in 23 years of driving, have I thought a road car needed more camber. There are disadvantages to having negative camber too. They don't NEED it on track, let alone the road.

 

[.Adam.]

Cheapest place to buy them is K-Tec iirc.

 

[adamlstr]

I'm not going to reduce to that level but never in 23 years of driving, have I thought a road car needed more camber. There are disadvantages to having negative camber too. They don't NEED it on track, let alone the road.

I'm not sure what you've been smoking, but I don't want any.

For the minimal outlay, and better feel you get with a little more camber up front, do it.

Cheapest place to buy them is K-Tec iirc.

 

[Adam G]

And negative camber reduces straight line stability and increases the chance of aquaplaning. So I don't think I'm the one on drugs.
Carry on lads.

 

[Jeffie]

The point is having the adjustability. If for whatever reason it's off standard spec due to any number of factors, camber bolts let you put it back to the factory spec that those Renault test drivers signed off on.

Having adjustable camber is better than not having it. Quite simple.

 

[Adamm.]

Get an alignment reading, if you need some get some, just bear in mind its another thing to adjust every time you have the geometry done = more £.

 

[Fred@BTM]

The point is having the adjustability. If for whatever reason it's off standard spec due to any number of factors, camber bolts let you put it back to the factory spec that those Renault test drivers signed off on.

Having adjustable camber is better than not having it. Quite simple.

if its off standard spec then something is broken/worn, using camber bolts to "put it back to spec" isn't a good idea, sort the worn parts first then recheck it

unless you refer to it being excessivley low and you then use camber bolts to sort that, but then the stock setting will be useless/pointless with a lowered ride height

 

[udi]

Please enlighten me on why you know better than Renault test drivers, that spent hours setting up the suspension to get the best compromise? Other than you're one of those that like it "slammed"

The Ph2 172 which the OP owns runs a factory spec of -0.3* camber on the front and -1.5* camber on the rear. It's actually a strange choice by RS to do this, isn't at all beneficial to the car's handling from a performance standpoint, and results in the outside edges of the front tyres seeing accelerated wear under regular hard cornering. It also puts excess strain on the tyre sidewall and generally results in reduced front traction. The rear of the car manages tyres much better in contrast, and has a far more ideal setup for the driving these cars often see.

The stock caster numbers on the non-cup models are also incredibly low, and increased to ~2.5-3.0* if you opt for a 172 Cup or some flavour of 182. These numbers are also somewhat insufficient for a strut front suspension from a performance standpoint, but the regular Ph2 172 has a number below 2.0 which is abysmal. This means that at harder steering angles there is little additional gain of negative camber, making the static camber value of 0.3* even more inadequate.

An ideal solution would be installing cup front lower arms or drilling new mounting holes (as Chip on here has done) to increase caster and decrease the amount of static negative camber required. However whether that's done or not, an increase of front static camber to -1.5* to match the rear will be very beneficial to handling and tyre management (increased grip, reduced edge wear, even heating). The disadvantages are hugely outweighed by the advantages, and in this particular case it's more of a correction than an aggressive change. Track versions of these cars would see -2.5* upwards, what you can achieve with camber bolts alone is lower than that and generally constitutes a modest fast-road setup.

Long story short - camber bolts are a great idea. Consider yourself enlightened.

 

[sbridgey]

Its a f**king road car. Camber bolts are not required.

 

[Adam G]

Udi, no sorry I'm not enlightened by your post. I'm amazed that you bothered to write such a reply, thinking that it might enlighten me. Seriously don't try to enlighten me because you won't. I skimmed over your post but briefly got the impression that you also know better. Having driven mine on road and track, I was more than happy with the standard factory settings thanks. Oh and I get more tyre wear since adding camber bolts (that I added for track use)
Perhaps copy and paste your reply to Renault, also suggest that they wasted thousands of Euros on research and development and should just ask you.

 

[Adam G]

Its a f**king road car. Camber bolts are not required.

Oh another track day driver whom had camber bolts agrees.
​Halleluiah.

 

[Thrust-Rated]

Oh another track day driver whom had camber bolts agrees.
​Halleluiah.

Adams fuming

Camber bolts on a road car which OP has said will never see a track? What's the point?

 

[sbridgey]

He certainly is!

Camber bolts are wasted on a road only car, they will just increase tyre wear.

 

[Thrust-Rated]

Ye but they look sick yo!

 

[TTrev]

I'll get my coat
​

 

[Adam G]

Just amazes me, that people drive these cars on the road and think they need to make them handle even better.
Scary TBH, maybe I'm just old!:banghead:

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

Oh another track day driver whom had camber bolts agrees.
​Halleluiah.

lol mines a road car but we all know why i have them

it would be pointless otherwise

 

[Adam G]

lol mines a road car but we all know why i have them

it would be pointless otherwise

You're special:approve:

 

[udi]

Everything I stated in my post still stands as true.

Unfortunately road and track driving are not black and white, if people are doing mountain runs or driving spiritedly on other low-traffic roads that is their business and the OP gave the impression that's the case. Let's be honest, you don't need 182HP in a 1000kg car for road use either - if your logic held true, we'd all drive corollas on the road. My suggestions were to maximise performance in any performance oriented application - whether road or track.

If you can't see the deficiencies in running close to 0* static negative camber in road OR track applications, then you aren't driving your car hard or fast enough - that too is your choice.

Udi, no sorry I'm not enlightened by your post. I'm amazed that you bothered to write such a reply. Oh and I get more tyre wear since adding camber bolts (that I added for track use). Perhaps copy and paste your reply to Renault, also suggest that they wasted thousands of Euros on research and development and should just ask you.

By your blind logic, you should have seen almost equivalent "tyre wear" on the rear of your car as the front with bolts installed. If you bothered to read my post (detailing RS factory settings) you would see that stock negative camber on the rear is roughly as much as the front will get after correcting camber.

Furthermore, is your car completely stock?
If not, why have you made any of the changes you have - do you also know better than Renault? The correct answer would be to better tailor your vehicle to your application. Renault spend R&D budgets on developing a car that will work for a large variety of applications - this results in compromise from a purist performance standpoint. It is common knowledge that strut front suspensions are fundamentally flawed in performance applications due the lack of dynamic negative camber gain. To counteract this a certain amount of static negative camber should be used to optimise tyre management - like I said earlier -1.5* all round is reasonable for fast road applications, -2.0* and greater for track applications. The factory rear setting of -1.5* fits this perfectly, but the front setting of -0.3* does not - hence my suggestion that camber bolts will offer tangible benefits, including a listing of those benefits.

I'd suggest re-reading my post with an open mind, you might learn something.

 

[Dr HMS Derv Destroyer]

You're special:approve:

FLOL :star:

 

[Adam G]

I answered what my use was and you even quoted it above (road and track0. You also answered yourself here "The correct answer would be to better tailor your vehicle to your application. Renault spend R&D budgets on developing a car that will work for a large variety of applications " Don't tell me the OP will be driving like he's on a quali lap every waking hour.
I'm not denying what you are saying is correct, my point is from my first post in the thread. For just road use it is not worth it. What are you really going to gain? I mean realistically. I've seen people modifying cars for about 30 odd years and the simple truth is that you spend a lot, for very little gain. You really don't need to try to convince me otherwise, I'm not trying to be any hero or keyboard warrior, far from it. If anybody ever thinks that of me, they are very wrong. My opinion is that just is not worth bothering. Consider it that scene in Star Wars,The Phantom Menace when Obi Wan goes to see that alien in the cafe and he quotes something along the lines of, the difference between knowledge and wisdom. If you're a Euro boy and want that look, then it's your car and your money.
Essentially you'd spend £20 on the bolts, up to £100 getting the geo set to your taste and for what? Make the most of what you have IMO. The most fun on the road can be had in the most basic of cars, not the fastest. Easier to find/go over the limit in a Metro than a Clio (and you'll be going slower). Please don't quote any more statistics, I'm not saying you're stats are wrong, just totally unnecessary, in my opinion.

 

[udi]

You're missing the point - which is that a certain amount of negative camber is beneficial (on a car that gains little to none of it as travel is used) even in typical road use conditions. From factory the rear of the car runs a certain (appropriate) amount, yet the amount at the front is comparatively quite lacking - thus there is actually a noticeable bias / flaw in tyre management on a completely stock car.

You assume that just because you don't want to make a particular optimisation - that it applies to everyone. Like I asked earlier, do you drive a stock Clio? If not, why didn't you just "make the most of what you had"? You contradict your own argument. Considering a good wheel alignment is something most people invest in anyway, £20 to make much better use of that investment is a negligible expense.

Also, I'm not sure where you're making the "Euro boy" correlation - my posts were about the optimisation of contact patch, traction and wear. You'll find that the numbers I suggested for road use make virtually no visual difference to the car, my interests are purely functional.

 

[Adam G]

Having driven mine on road and track, I was more than happy with the standard factory settings thanks. Oh and I get more tyre wear since adding camber bolts (that I added for track use)
Perhaps copy and paste your reply to Renault, also suggest that they wasted thousands of Euros on research and development and should just ask you.

Oh another track day driver whom had camber bolts agrees.
​Halleluiah.

Like I asked earlier, do you drive a stock Clio?

I give up on all counts, I'm not missing the point. I am hitting a brick wall.

My euro boy comment wasn't aimed at you, it was a generalisation for those that choose to get that look.

​I'm out.

 

[Sam@NP]

This thread is funny

 

[Thrust-Rated]

I might strip my car out and get rid of anything I don't need. I won't ever see a track though, but it'll be worthwhile for road use

 

[Adam G]

This thread is funny

Had to watch my blood pressure, was transforming into this guy:

 

[Adamm.]

f**k typing all that over camber bolts lol!

 

[Adam G]

f**k typing all that over camber bolts lol!

Wish I'd have said to fit them now

 

[Thrust-Rated]

Wish I'd have said to fit them now

You're telling me!

 

[rich-6]

You won't need them with sportlines, Just get your toe checked.

 

[Paul R]

This thread is amazing....

-standard suspension setups and geo can always be improved on to what the driver prefers whether its ROAD or TRACK.

-increased camber can be good and bad depending on your driving style and how much is used.

-the person who said "since adding more camber my tyres wear quicker" odviously they will on the inside as mkre load is there, if it is across the whole tyrd you are just driving harder due to increased stability from a half decent setup.

-camber bolts yay or nay, do it f**k what everyone else thinks, my old mini ran -1.6 camber up front ant -1.2 rear and it was a road car, my metro vvc runs -1.7 up front and -0.5 rear, yes I attended the occasionally track day but for having fun on the road it made a world of difference to how the cars drove.

-no I'm not an idiot I know what a good set up is for my cars. This thread is a load of bs it depends on your driving style and what you do with te car

 

[Adam G]

Fpmsl, please keep the replies coming. I find it absolutely hysterical that people can get so technical about a road car setup.
I bet you're a bundle of laughs down the pub. Ah but this pint would be so much nicer in a handled glass, served at 1 degree less and with 0.01% more alcohol.
What's your average speed say on your trip? Then decide.

 

[udi]

I find it absolutely hysterical that people can get so technical about a road car setup.

Maybe you got lost.

 

[Paul R]

I'm not on about average speed ect, if the driver prefers an adjusted set up so be it.

Why is it histerical that people want a good setup on a road car? Why do you want a good set up on a track or race car? Your making your self sound a little silly, it is obvious to have a better feel and to be more confident in a car. The same reason some people will always turn off the traction control of a car becauee they prefer doing the work themselves.

 

[.GAZ.]

Cheapest place to buy them is K-Tec iirc.

HAHA!