Speaker wires...

[Ex-User (19928)]

Ok.

Bought some replacement mid-bass speakers today.. Ripped out the old ones, stripped the "heads" off the cables, and now I realise I didn't write down + and -....

Does it matter ?? I temp-soldered the wires back onto the old speakers, and played some music, but there was no difference no matter which way I put the cables...

Am I missing something or do speakers generally work both ways...

J

 

[BrianR]

YEP, it matters. You will cause phase cancellation if you get it wrong.....you loose the stereo image. Look inside the connectors you cut off you will see + and - marked in there.
DONT solder speaker connections unless you use a heat sink you will stuff the speakers with the heat.

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Yeah the actual connector has a + and - on it... But to which wire they relate to... Hmm I'm drawing a blank. Not sure I'll be able to find out at all, perhaps with a voltmeter it will show me + or -.... I'll try tomorrow.

But why is soldering a speaker connection a problem?? Don't get you on that one.

 

[BrianR]

Did you cut the wires so short you cant see the colours in the plug ?

You cant measure speaker polarity with a volt meter.

Soldering is bad for 2 reasons.
You can damage the speaker cones with the heat....look at your speakers and you will see the wires from the terminals is braided. This is called LITZ wire. It is designed to be flexible so when the cone moves in and out, it doesnt offer any mechanical resistance.
If you heat it up, its soaks up the solder and goes stiff....not good !

Secondly if you heat them up too much you will damage the coil that sits inside the magnet. This also moves, in a very tiny gap, and if you distort it with heat it will rub the insulating laquer off and short out. This is the second most common cause of speakers sounding crap. The first is driving them too hard and causing the same overheating effect.

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Did you cut the wires so short you cant see the colours in the plug ?

You cant measure speaker polarity with a volt meter.

Soldering is bad for 2 reasons.
You can damage the speaker cones with the heat....look at your speakers and you will see the wires from the terminals is braided. This is called LITZ wire. It is designed to be flexible so when the cone moves in and out, it doesnt offer any mechanical resistance.
If you heat it up, its soaks up the solder and goes stiff....not good !

Secondly if you heat them up too much you will damage the coil that sits inside the magnet. This also moves, in a very tiny gap, and if you distort it with heat it will rub the insulating laquer off and short out. This is the second most common cause of speakers sounding crap. The first is driving them too hard and causing the same overheating effect.

Thanks for the tips...

Though yes, I pulled the wires out of the plastic plug.. So it is pretty impossible to tell which is which I guess...

I suppose I could pull the headunit out and tell from that end... Jeeees, what a chore changing some speakers can be.

 

[BrianR]

Thanks for the tips...

Though yes, I pulled the wires out of the plastic plug.. So it is pretty impossible to tell which is which I guess...

I suppose I could pull the headunit out and tell from that end... Jeeees, what a chore changing some speakers can be.

I cant remember the colours as they are different front to rear left to right, but
THE PLAIN WIRE IS POSITIVE AND THE STRIPED WIRE IS NEGATIVE

Hope this helps

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

That would help.. And I would have sorted this by looking at the Right door speaker... But they're both different... And every wire is striped Guess Renault ran out of good ideas when it came to the wiring..

 

[BrianR]

I know for sure the right hand door speaker on the 172 is
Pink---Negative
White----Positive

But I dont know the other side at the moment

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Ok, well I took the headunit out and had a quick butchers at the wiring diagram in Haynes.

Cut a long story short, I have busted one of my JBL speakers I had in the back (tested + and - with that rather than the new ones)..

So now I put it back in the back anyway, and noticed it would play normally if I pushed the middle of the cone in a few mm..... Weird... Is there something I can do to repair it to play normally ??? Perhaps something to do with the magnet... Or would a specialist be able to do something? If it's going to cost loads I'll buy some more, but considering 1 out of a set is fucked, tis a shame to see them all wasted..

 

[BrianR]

Ok, well I took the headunit out and had a quick butchers at the wiring diagram in Haynes.

Cut a long story short, I have busted one of my JBL speakers I had in the back (tested + and - with that rather than the new ones)..

So now I put it back in the back anyway, and noticed it would play normally if I pushed the middle of the cone in a few mm..... Weird... Is there something I can do to repair it to play normally ??? Perhaps something to do with the magnet... Or would a specialist be able to do something? If it's going to cost loads I'll buy some more, but considering 1 out of a set is f**ked, tis a shame to see them all wasted..

I think thats cattle trucked mate, the clearance between the coil and the magnets is nats, so they have had it. OOPS :dead:

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

I think thats cattle trucked mate, the clearance between the coil and the magnets is nats, so they have had it. OOPS :dead:

lol.

I have written + and - on them for next time :rasp:

 

[Dink]

lol you need to be a right tool to distort a voice coil with a soldering iron

 

[BrianR]

I wont comment, your probably bigger than me !

 

[Dink]

lmao i doubt it

 

[coling2005]

Sorry to butt into your thread but i ave the same problem and no point startin a new 1...

Can anyone give an exact explanation of which colour of wire is +'ve and -'ve in each of the 4 speakers, in particular the 2 speakers in the back seat. (Dynamique 3 door Dci 65 - if this helps).

I've wired mine up and they're working but just wondering if they're wired in correct.
I found 2 of the old connecters, just hoping they're from the 2 back speakers. Grey and Brown, and Green and Grey i think, but the grey seems to be +'ve for 1 and not the other!

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

:boring: ...

I didn't solder it in the end, it was the fact I had the wires the wrong way round..

To cut a long story short, it was basically impossible to work it out... Oh well, so now I have a corner in the car I will have to replace with a.... s**t.. I have some poxy Pioneers lying around somewhere..

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Sorry to butt into your thread but i ave the same problem and no point startin a new 1...

Can anyone give an exact explanation of which colour of wire is +'ve and -'ve in each of the 4 speakers, in particular the 2 speakers in the back seat. (Dynamique 3 door Dci 65 - if this helps).

I've wired mine up and they're working but just wondering if they're wired in correct.
I found 2 of the old connecters, just hoping they're from the 2 back speakers. Grey and Brown, and Green and Grey i think, but the grey seems to be +'ve for 1 and not the other!

If they're working then they're right, it took me about 20 seconds to blow up that speaker I mentioned.

Colours seem to be random aswell....

 

[Dink]

you won't blow a speaker by connecting it up backwards

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

you won't blow a speaker by connecting it up backwards

oooo.

Interesting. So there is hope ??

Basically, I have to push the cone inward for it to work, so I would hazard a guess something has got stuck, perhaps the magnet and the coil ???

TBH I know jack all about the goings on inside a speaker.

If you're telling me I can get it repaired then I shall go look into that today.

 

[BrianR]

you won't blow a speaker by connecting it up backwards

Who said you would ? Wiring up the wrong way round will just make it sound bad.

LECTURE COMMING UP.......

The polarity of a speaker has to be correct for it to work and produce the correct sound pressure wave.
Simple test. Take an old speaker, some wire and a 1.5 volt battery. (this is why I said an old speaker)

Connect the wires to the speaker and touch the battery terminals briefly and watch which way the cone goes. Now reverse the connections on the battery and you will see it goes the other way.

Now, if everything is as it should be, when you did this test the positive on the battery connected to the positive on the speaker, should have driven the cone out towards the front of the speaker.

THIS IS CORRECT. if this were a speaker driven by your amp or head unit, it would be correctly "in phase"

The reason this is important is, the cone going forward produces the sounds pressure wave which ends up in your ears as music.
If the speaker was going the wrong way it would , if you like, be sucking instead of blowing, You would still hear it but it would be "out of phase" and not sounding as good.

Still with me ?:sleepy:

Now the worse case scenario. If you have one speaker "in phase" and the other "out of phase" you get a cancelling effect. That really sounds awful.

I have seen a test done at an Alpine installers course I attended, where the had 2 x 10inch Subs in a sealed box, they drove them with a 50hz signal via a 200w amp and they were LOUD. They then swapped the terminals on ONE speaker, re-applied the same signal......almost total silence. Everybodys jaw dropped.

As music is not a continuous single tone, you dont get an absolute cancellation to achieve that sort of silence, but work out how much you could be missing if you get it wrong. This is most noticeable at the low frequencies that produce the bass everybody loves.

Lecture over.........Lunch time......be back at 1pm sharp or I will you will get detention.

 

[BrianR]

oooo.

Interesting. So there is hope ??

Basically, I have to push the cone inward for it to work, so I would hazard a guess something has got stuck, perhaps the magnet and the coil ???

TBH I know jack all about the goings on inside a speaker.

If you're telling me I can get it repaired then I shall go look into that today.

Somewhere, I have a cut-away diagram of a speaker, I will try to find it and post it for you tonight

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Wait....

If I didn't break it by connecting it the wrong way, what did break it ??

I tested it at low volume for a few seconds, and didn't know the "which was is the cone going" test (I have just been told by someone in the office the exact same thing)....

Then when I assumed it was correct I connected it the other way and gave it a loud test, it worked for about 20 seconds, and then died...

Any suggestions ?

 

[Dink]

i couldn't be arsed to read the lecture

all i know is that the cone moves forward from rest and also backwards

wiring it up out of phase it will move back first instead of forward due to the fact you are dealing with a sine wave and not dc

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

i couldn't be arsed to read the lecture

all i know is that the cone moves forward from rest and also backwards

wiring it up out of phase it will move back first instead of forward due to the fact you are dealing with a sine wave and not dc

Think Brian wrote it for my benefit.

Anyway this is good guys, spoke to the surveyer at work and he said the same in that you shouldn't blow a speaker by wiring it wrong, and that it should just play the other way... Which brings the point about, perhaps I wired it correctly the first time.... Can't really tell until the speaker gets fixed. So I'll take it back in a few days when I get a minute.

 

[BrianR]

i couldn't be arsed to read the lecture

all i know is that the cone moves forward from rest and also backwards

wiring it up out of phase it will move back first instead of forward due to the fact you are dealing with a sine wave and not dc

Cobblers ! you should have read the lecture, or are you more knowledgeable than the technicians at Alpine ?

 

[BrianR]

Then when I assumed it was correct I connected it the other way and gave it a loud test, it worked for about 20 seconds, and then died...

Thats what did it, you have overdriven it and distorted the coil. Still looking for my cut-away for you.

 

[Dink]

by the sounds of it was overdriven and the coil has left it's magnetic gap as you drove it past it's xmech

whats cobblers??? perhaps i do know more who knows

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Hmmmm.

Ok, well I'll just take it back to the place I bought it and ask them why it's suddenly died...

 

[jamesy]

forgive me for not reading the thread whats died?

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

forgive me for not reading the thread whats died?

My speaker.

I am 80% sure I wired it incorrectly, and gave it a loudish session of 20 seconds, and now it doesn't work unless you push the cone in a few mm....

 

[BrianR]

Hi cliokhunt,

I found this article which you might like to read, it covers most of the points I made, I have cut and pasted one particular section which I think is where your problem started.
The link takes you to the full article. (strangely no mention of amps producing sine wave ?) perhaps they dont know what they are talking about also, who knows.

POWER HANDLING
Probably the biggest myth within the car audio field is that power handling equals volume, and that a speaker that handles more watts will always be louder. Generally speaking, this can lead to major problems including damage to speakers and/or amplifiers. A well matched system with a relatively conservative power rating can easily outperform a badly matched system utilising speakers with vast power handling.
As a general rule, the best speaker to choose is one with an RMS power figure just above the RMS power output of the amplifier (or head unit) it is being powered from. This helps to ensure that the speaker can handle the thermal demands placed on it by the amplifier. Speakers with high power handling generally have a low sensitivity. When run from an under-sized amplifier, the end result tends to be disappointing. As a result, the user inevitably tries to force more power from the amplifier than it can safely deliver. As this happens, the DC content within the amplifier's output signal increases. The voice coil within the speaker is designed to handle AC current. As the level of DC increases, the thermal effects on the speaker's voice coil increase drastically, causing burn voice coils and melted coil coatings. Very often, this causes a drop in voice coil resistance, which can cause the amplifier to fail.


http://www.incarexpress.co.uk/page.php?content=help_speakers

 

[BrianR]

What does a voice coil do?

The vast majority of speakers available on the market today are referred to as electrodynamic. All electrodynamic speakers share a fundamental aspect of operation: the reaction of a fixed magnetic field against a changing one. In most electrodynamic speakers, a voice coil, which is a single coiled length of wire wrapped around a cylinder called a former, produces the changing magnetic field when alternating current from the amplifier flows through it.

This current is an electrical representation of the sound that was produced by the musicians in the recording studio and causes the voice coil (and therefore the cone or dome attached to it) to react against the fixed magnetic field produced by the speakers fixed magnet. A positive pulse should cause the cone to move outward and a negative pulse should cause the cone to move inward. When the cone moves as a result of being propelled by the voice coil, it produces the changes in the air pressure of the listening environment that we perceive as sound

 

[Ex-User (19928)]

Good read Brian thanks.

 

[Dink]

one point i'd like to point out no matter how far you push an amp your never going to get dc

also that arcticle has a major flaw as everyone know that you should get an amp with an higher RMS output than the speakers, as speakers only tend to die when they get fed a clipped signal?

 

[BrianR]

one point i'd like to point out no matter how far you push an amp your never going to get dc

also that arcticle has a major flaw as everyone know that you should get an amp with an higher RMS output than the speakers, as speakers only tend to die when they get fed a clipped signal?

KEEP DIGGING

 

[Dink]

digging lmao

whats wrong about what i said then??

 

[BrianR]

digging lmao

whats wrong about what i said then??

No disrespect intended so let me give you the benefit of the doubt and assume you are not just on a wind up.
But it appears you dont believe what the author of that article, a professional speaker manufacturer, or I, say. So do your own research.
Its strange you "couldnt be arsed" to read my post but want to argue I was wrong.

I dont see how you think its helping the guy, by making unsubstantiated claims that you know what you are talking about when clearly you dont understand the principles.

 

[Dink]

no i don't believe the author tbh

i know that it's clipping that is the main cause of speaker failure which tends to be formed by people trying to get too much power out of there amps thus making it clip(i won't explain why it clips i'm sure you know that already). it's better to be running an amp @80% and the the speakers @100% than the other way round (think it's called headroom)

you can kill a speaker by puttin ga clean signal in don't get me wrong as when the voice coil leaves the magnetic gap it stops converting most of the current to kinetic energy and just tends to produce heat.

 

[BrianR]

That’s the most utter rubbish, ill take that as a confirmation that you’re on a wind up. I sincerely hope that in the process you don’t persuade anybody to follow your advice and end up with damaged or burnt out equipment.

 

[Dink]

no mate what your copy and pasting is utter rubbish try asking the people on TA. or are all those people wrong too?