Slipped timing - what to expect?

[ianeire]

My mechanical knowledge only extends marginally beyond the basics, so bear with me. I think my timing belt slipped lastnight, the car sounds like a bag of spanners.

In terms of the engine & belt itself, the timing belt was done by K-tec in 2007 with 60-70k on the engine, it's now on 99k. I'm hoping that the tensioners were done with the belt at the time. Oil and filter were brand new - less than a week old, and the oil was 5w40 Comma with a spurious Mann filter. Engine was warm at the time of it happening, I had just done 170 miles in about 3 hours.

Engine currently sounds like this sick Alfa . I've been out this morning for a look and well, manifold it tight, exhaust seems fine, engine mount seems fine, timing belt seems tight where I can get my fingers to it to feel, oil filter is present etc.

I'll assume that the 172 in not non-interference. If worst fears are realised and the rattle coming from internally rather than something like a tensioner, what damage can I expect internally? ... valves ... pistons ... ?

Where would I begin to search in the UK for replacement engines for shipping to over here should the repair bill be hard to stomach? Am I restricted to searching for a replacement ph1 engine or will a ph2 172/182 engine fit?

Cheers,
Ian

 

[bmh.01]

Might be a shot dephaser pulley actually, does the noise stop if you pick the revs up? If it does then don't run it anymore as it'll be bad news if it fails.

 

[ianeire]

I'm not sure bmh.01, it may have at the beginning, I switched it off and not particularly keen on trying to see. Where about is the dephaser pulley located, and at circa what RPM would it cease if it was this?

Ian

 

[ianeire]

Similar to the Alfa in my first post, it also sounds very similar to DrRollos car here http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showpost.php?p=4954278&postcount=13

Not sure if his was completely failed at that point or at the brink of shearing. But he says new valves were needed once it sheared, eek.

 

[ben_p]

On the inlet cam, it advances/decreases iginition timing if there is det etc.

 

[ben_p]

Part is about £150 iirc, plus the cost of a new cambelt fitment.

 

[ianeire]

Next question, local or main dealer? Neither are likely to have worked to any great degree on an F4R engine. I would probably trust the local more, and they'll no doubt be cheaper in terms of labour too.

There are no Renault specialists in Ireland.

 

[bmh.01]

I'm not sure bmh.01, it may have at the beginning, I switched it off and not particularly keen on trying to see. Where about is the dephaser pulley located, and at circa what RPM would it cease if it was this?

Ian

VVT advances above 1800rpm so doesn't need to be revved a lot. If thats what it is stop running the engine full stop until its sorted imo.

 

[bmh.01]

Next question, local or main dealer? Neither are likely to have worked to any great degree on an F4R engine. I would probably trust the local more, and they'll no doubt be cheaper in terms of labour too.

There are no Renault specialists in Ireland.

Not an easy job as its very fiddly cambelt wise and they need the locking tools

 

[ianeire]

If it is 'only' the dephaser making the noise at the moment, will there have been any damage done to the valves etc. yet?

 

[ben_p]

no, its cant advance enough to go out of time

 

[sideways danny]

VVT advances above 1800rpm so doesn't need to be revved a lot. If thats what it is stop running the engine full stop until its sorted imo.

wont advance the cam on revving until it's warm though

 

[ianeire]

Dealer prices vary enormously I know, but is there anyone that would know enough price wise to guesstimate the job at a main dealers? - dephaser/cambelt/aux belt ...

Ian

 

[bmh.01]

I'd guess it'll be towards £1k or so. Only way to find out is to call them.

 

[Russ.]

I had to have my dephaser pulley replaced when i had my cambelt changed. Cost approx £560 for the cambelt change and dephaser pulley at Birchdown. Thing the dephaser was approx £120

 

[ianeire]

Can anyone tell me if the tools needed to lock the cams in place are generic across the Clio range or are they an F4R specific tool?

Thanks
Ian

 

[caister]

Is it definately something timing related?

 

[Nicolasticity]

Whats the auxiliary belt look like? Mine lost a small piece which went under the Cambelt cover and wrapped around the crank which let the belt jump a tooth (~18 degrees out) - bye bye valves....

see here http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=349204

 

[ianeire]

Is it definately something timing related?

No not definite and my mechanical skills are certainly not up to making a qualified judgement on what's gone wrong, but reading over the weekend on here it certainly sounds like the dephaser pulley literally on its last legs. I'll be towing the car somewhere tomorrow and getting them to tell me exactly what's wrong.

Whats the auxiliary belt look like? Mine lost a small piece which went under the Cambelt cover and wrapped around the crank which let the belt jump a tooth (~18 degrees out) - bye bye valves....

see here http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=349204

Haven't had a proper look, but in terms of starting and turning over, mine will still do those no problem. Not that I do either for longer than a few seconds the way it is at the moment.

Honestly, I don't know what has gone wrong. Initially I thought the cambelt had slipped and the timing was out, but reading further (and listening to the clips of DrRollos car) I am now thinking that it is a dephaser problem. Only time will tell, but I'm hoping its the latter.

I was looking to find out about tools for changing the cambelt as my only options for carrying out the work are main dealer or a local garage, neither of which are likely to have worked on an RS before. That the tool is in someway generic across the range will mean that I can take it to the local guy.

Ian

 

[caister]

Could be something much simpler like a loose/bad spark plug, HT lead, Coil pack etc etc. You will be ok starting and running the car if its the dephaser pulley. People on here drive them for months when they are like that (though its not advisable).

Do you have an RStuner or OBDII reader you could use to see if there are any codes being shown by the ECU?

 

[ianeire]

As it now currently stands I am 820stg lighter having put the car into a Renault main dealer to have the cambelt, aux belt, tensioners, water pump and coolant replaced. On top of that will be the price of the dephaser pulley, should that be what the problem is.

I really hope it is, as bent valves really will be a nightmare scenario.

 

[caister]

I thought you have already had all of them done at K-Tec? Are you sure one of them was the problem?

 

[ianeire]

They were done prior to I purchasing the car in 2007 at K-tec. Subsequently the aux belt is due again in 6k miles. I assume that in order for them to get the dephaser pulley off to examine it they'll have to take the cambelt off, so a new one will have to be put on again. And to take the cambelt off the aux belt has to come off so ..

Will it be possible to thoroughly examine the dephaser without removing the belt?

 

[caister]

No but they should be able to tell from the noise its making.

I would have started with the simplest cheaper things first myself rather than going head on in for the most expensive things.

As far as I know the water pumps on these hardly ever fail as well, it seems to be a forum myth to get them replaced along with the cambelt.

 

[Nicolasticity]

No but they should be able to tell from the noise its making.

I would have started with the simplest cheaper things first myself rather than going head on in for the most expensive things.

As far as I know the water pumps on these hardly ever fail as well, it seems to be a forum myth to get them replaced along with the cambelt.

Oooohhh, dont say that spent me Saturday under the car, buying a torx socket, working out how to juggle the pump up and out of the car, and fitting a new one after paying City Motors £60-43p+vat for the privilige and all because the threads say change it at 60K miles...

 

[caister]

If you do a search your find many a thread with specialists saying its a myth...... Sorry!

Prime Example

 

[ianeire]

Just off the phone with the main dealer having heard no word over the last few days. The prognosis was indeed correct in terms of a tensioner in trouble. Luckily it wasn't the dephaser pulley, but one of the tensioners that is part of the cam/aux belt kit. So the cost is one of a timing belt job, €915. A hell of a lot easier to swallow than a rebuilt engine that's for sure!

Was also nice to hear from the other service manager that the Clio was one of the cars that he doesn't leave in the yard after closing, gets rolled into the garage away from prying eyes every night.