Position for returning a car to a trader

[Ray Roocroft]

Hi Guys,
Some people will have seen my posts around the forum regarding the repairs to the car I have bought but it has gone beyond what I would now call reasonable. (here is the car in question: http://www4.autotrader.co.uk/classified/advert/201510278202590?maximum-mileage=up_to_80000_miles&search-target=usedcars&page=1&price-to=2000&price-from=1000&model=clio&postcode=bb72np&radius=50&minimum-mileage=from_70000_miles&onesearchad=used,nearlynew,new&make=renault&sort=atcustomh2l&logcode=p)

• I purchased the car on Monday. After having a test drive we noted a cracked rear right disk and factored that into the price.
• On the way back I noticed a temp problem and figured it was the thermostat, so on Wednesday night I had the rear brake discs and pads replaced and the thermostat.
• Removing the thermostat showed brown liquid pouring out, something that makes me cringe. Also the rear caliper needed replacing so that had been ordered.
• Inspecting the car in general the mechanic believes the front right bearing needs replacing soon.tm and potentially a driveshaft, which led to...
• The car was making a rubbing noise after fitting the brakes and we thought it was the caliper but now the mechanic believes it is the diff. emptying the fluid in the gearbox revealed tiny shards of metal.

I am happy to accept that consumables such as brakes, tyres, service etc are perfectly acceptable things to expect to replace even when buying a car, but what I do not believe is that the seller didnt know about the state of the coolant or the diff issue, and it has been masked over.

I would like to keep the car but with the seller paying for some (if not all) of the repairs OR return the car as is (even though its had new brakes, pads, thermostat, coolant, etc) and have a full refund.

My question - do I have a leg to stand on? what possibilities is there for me? what do YOU guys think I should do?

Super gutted at the moment - love the car, its got character, hence why I had it under the torch from the moment I bought it to correct every niggle, I just didnt realise it would expose a massive issue such as this (massive for me as I didnt want to be spending hundreds or thousands fixing a car I just bought whilst saving for a house).

 

[Goodj]

At what point did you return the vehicle to the vendor to give them the opportunity to rectfiy the issues?
Because it sounds very much like you haven't at all and have treated the whole situation like a private sale.
In the same positon, I'd have drpped the car back at the vendor and left it with them until you could see evidence of it being fixed.

However now you're going to be going down the "goodwill gesture" of the vendor paying towards the cost of repairs.
If you can get a mechanic to put in writing what the problems were , how they were fixed, and you support these with actual invoices, you'll be able to lean on the vendor a lot harder.

 

[Ray Roocroft]

At what point did you return the vehicle to the vendor to give them the opportunity to rectfiy the issues?

Its only gotten to today where its come to light that the driveshaft, wheel bearing and gearbox need doing (these are the main points of me being like, OK, this is too much).
Before it was consumables like the brakes etc so thought nothing of it. Coolant being brown tweaked an eyebrow. This just blows them out the water.
I have messaged the guy as soon as I have found out and asked if he would prefer paying for repairs or returning the car. He hasnt got a garage to fix it himself, and although Im sure he can get someone to fix it, judging by the state of the stuff he has given me readily (and his wife and kid drove on the school run) I wouldnt trust it.

 

[Goodj]

Ultimately, by doing what seemed the most sensible thing (gettign it fixed) may actually have gone against you. Stupid, but true
But yes, keep any and all paperwork. You may be able to take a worst-case-scenario and go via small-claims court if you really want to.

 

[Ray Roocroft]

Ultimately, by doing what seemed the most sensible thing (gettign it fixed) may actually have gone against you. Stupid, but true 😧
But yes, keep any and all paperwork. You may be able to take a worst-case-scenario and go via small-claims court if you really want to.

When you say fixed, all ive had done is the rear brakes and thermostat so far. The rest required:

• Driveshaft
• front right wheel bearing
• rear right Caliper
• gearbox refurb

This is why ive halted before stuff gets major - surely I can return the car after only owning for 3 days with the problem part (the gearbox mainly) being untouched?

 

[H182]

You should be able to return it for a full refund. I'm not sure if he'll reimburse you for the repairs you've already done though.

 

[Goodj]

Ah cool.

Absolutely leave it completely alone now and put see what they say. There's not a lot more to do before you find out what their position is

But good luck, keep thread updated, we'll help with law where we can.

Thing is, what would you prefer? If they fixed it up, would you keep it? In fairness, it's a 13yr old Renault, it's going to have issues unless it's marked up at silly money. Also, cups get spanked by road-warrior/virgins and if not given the due care, attention and money, turn to heaps.

So, if it was fixed up to full health, it may still be a better bet than getting a different one

 

[172_Tom]

A lot will hinge on how much you paid for the car versus the market value. How much did you pay and what's the age/mileage/service history like? I assume it was sold with a valid MOT certificate - when was the MOT done and were there any advisories? Presumably you'd have looked at the last MOT & advisory list before buying it...

It won't make it any easier that you have already had some of the faults rectified - I would not spend any more money on it at this point.

Have you got details of the seller (full name, address, company details) in case he's not cooperative and you end up taking it to small claims?

 

[dangerous dave]

You have a return period I think but you have 3 months warranty by law?

That's why they push like mother fkers for you to buy 12months from a 3rd party's, allows them to say "talk to them" and they hope you go away.

 

[Goodj]

You have a return period I think but you have 3 months warranty by law?

That's why they push like mother fkers for you to buy 12months from a 3rd party's, allows them to say "talk to them" and they hope you go away.

Sold as Seen doesn't cut it any more, you're right.
Unless the ad specifically lists issues and sets the product as "spares or repairs" or similar

 

[Ray Roocroft]

A lot will hinge on how much you paid for the car versus the market value. How much did you pay and what's the age/mileage/service history like? I assume it was sold with a valid MOT certificate - when was the MOT done and were there any advisories? Presumably you'd have looked at the last MOT & advisory list before buying it...
It won't make it any easier that you have already had some of the faults rectified - I would not spend any more money on it at this point.
Have you got details of the seller (full name, address, company details) in case he's not cooperative and you end up taking it to small claims?

Ive only done bits that were agreed during the sale - so for example it was up for £1500, he knocked off money for a quick sale and then £100 off for the brakes, so ive done the brakes and if you think from my point of view, thats kind of the full sale done and dusted.
MOT was fine, handbrake advisory but nothing else at all (june 2016 MOT).
Met at his house so I suspect he will be fully co-operative.

In reality this hinges down to a) if the seller is willing to give a decent refund (he isn't willing to repair) and b) whether the brown fluid in replace of the coolant is oil coming from the block/headgasket. If this is the case im returning right away, but IDEALLY id love to keep the car, hence why i got to mending right away and unearthed these problems.

 

[Ray Roocroft]

Thing is, what would you prefer? If they fixed it up, would you keep it? In fairness, it's a 13yr old Renault, it's going to have issues unless it's marked up at silly money. Also, cups get spanked by road-warrior/virgins and if not given the due care, attention and money, turn to heaps./QUOTE]

Id prefer to keep it and fix it up, but the reason i bought the car with FSH and decent Mot with cambelt and waterpump done was to have a more futureproof car rather than have to spend £800 fixing it right after I bought it. It would be worth it, but atm although ive got the money to do it I can't realllly afford.
Ill be sure to keep you all updated - thanks for the help so far :smile:

 

[Goodj]

It might be worth sticking with it then dude.
At least once the problems are fixed, you know there's no problems left.
Better the devil you know, etc.

 

[172_Tom]

Sounds like you paid a fair amount for what has so far turned out to be a bit of a lemon. If you'd paid £700 then you'd have less prospect of a comeback.

If I was in your situation I think I'd push for a full refund. Wouldn't really expect the seller to pay for the repairs you have already carried out though. It can take a lot of time/effort/money to make a bad car good. Chances are if it's in this bad state at the moment there could be other gremlins later down the line. On the balance of probabilities if you bought another cup at around £1500 it would most likely be better than this one.

Get your mechanic to write a report on headed paper describing the remaining faults with the car and parts/labour estimates to fix them. You may need it if the seller is not cooperative.

 

[Goodj]

another cup at around £1500 .

I can't agree with that.

Sure, you'd find ANOTHER cup at that price, but you'll get what you pay for. It'll have SOMETHING wrong with it.

If it's a 3k Cup, then yes, it should have belts done yesterday, have an immaculate steering wheel, no jizz stains on the seats and generally be almost concourse.

 

[Ray Roocroft]

It might be worth sticking with it then dude.
At least once the problems are fixed, you know there's no problems left.
Better the devil you know, etc.

I would love to keep it, but the coolant 'issue' is the tricky one - if there is oil going into the coolant then that is the premise to larger problems - here is the coolant that came out:

Sounds like you paid a fair amount for what has so far turned out to be a bit of a lemon. If you'd paid £700 then you'd have less prospect of a comeback.
Get your mechanic to write a report on headed paper describing the remaining faults with the car and parts/labour estimates to fix them. You may need it if the seller is not cooperative.

This is what we will be doing tonight - he is going to confirm the gearbox/diff issue and pressure test the engine and write it up so we can evaluate the cost vs gain. i HOPE it turns out I can keep it - i actually really like this car, but at the end of the day if its going to cost me an arm and a leg more than it should its simply not worth it.

 

[Ray Roocroft]

I can't agree with that.
Sure, you'd find ANOTHER cup at that price, but you'll get what you pay for. It'll have SOMETHING wrong with it.
If it's a 3k Cup, then yes, it should have belts done yesterday, have an immaculate steering wheel, no jizz stains on the seats and generally be almost concourse.

I dont believe that you should have to pay concourse money to get a functional motor though - most I were looking at around £1500 were already cambelted and water pumped with FSH, but I think the age of the rest of the car was then coming into play.

 

[GiT]

Erm, coolant that colour is a goosed head gaskets. That's oil and water mixed.

Demand your money back.

 

[Ray Roocroft]

Erm, coolant that colour is a goosed head gaskets. That's oil and water mixed.
Demand your money back.

😢 im taking it a pressure test will reveal this definitively?
I want to be 110% sure about taking it back as I will be losing money.

 

[Matt W]

Out of interest, did you look at the car and test drive before buying it?

 

[GiT]

Aye, sorry about that. Take it back, Keith Lemon of a motor.

 

[Goodj]

Out of interest, did you look at the car and test drive before buying it?

This is quite a point.

And I'm not saying you should have to pay £3k for a working car. YOu've clearly taken the shaft on this one and it wasn't ready for retail in any condition other than as a breaker.

Just that the expectations between a £1500 car and a £3k one will be quite different when we're talking about decade-old, cheap, French hatchbacks

 

[Ray Roocroft]

Out of interest, did you look at the car and test drive before buying it?

I purchased the car on Monday. After having a test drive we noted a cracked rear right disk and factored that into the price.

For others, please do not think i was naive or an idiot in buying a car without actually checking EVERYTHING that I could. Ive had 2 mechanics test drive the car alongside myself and the gearbox issue has only risen its ugly head today. The coolant issue was last night, so its a very short time frame (if id have owned the car a month and not taken action id understand).

 

[dangerous dave]

Sounds a pup, I've seen some much better cars changing hands for similar money needing zero work.

It's only parts and it's only money, but when it clearly needs £1000 or so of work, it's worthless.. Many people could do the work cheap but someone's gotta put the time in...

Either way, it should be you.. Back it

 

[172_Tom]

I can't agree with that.

Sure, you'd find ANOTHER cup at that price, but you'll get what you pay for. It'll have SOMETHING wrong with it.

If it's a 3k Cup, then yes, it should have belts done yesterday, have an immaculate steering wheel, no jizz stains on the seats and generally be almost concourse.

I said on the balance of probabilities - most £1500 cups would be better than this one. Certainly not without their niggles, but probably not needing hundreds of pounds spending immediately.

@Ray Roocroft not sure you really need to bother spending the extra time/money doing a compression test - I think you have enough grounds already to reject the car.

Hopefully the seller will refund you in full and you can learn some lessons from it as well. The cracked disc and dodgy coloured coolant would've set alarm bells ringing for me.

 

[Ray Roocroft]

@Ray Roocroft not sure you really need to bother spending the extra time/money doing a compression test - I think you have enough grounds already to reject the car.

Hopefully the seller will refund you in full and you can learn some lessons from it as well. The cracked disc and dodgy coloured coolant would've set alarm bells ringing for me.

Im hoping it is a hassle free refund but got a feeling it isnt going to be as he messaged me offering £200 and saying "THESE CARS ARE WORTH £2000", to which I replied "Yes, in good condition, and when they are road worthy". IMO its not road worthy, with a wheel bearing going, dodgy diff and oily coolant I mean, who can call that a roadworthy car...

 

[ADS_V6]

If he becomes a arse about it get trading standards involved Ray worked twice for me.Sorry to see the problems with it get your money back buy another or one on here for sale

 

[Budgie]

Aye, sorry about that. Take it back, Keith Lemon of a motor.

Very rare on a 1*2.

Very, very rare.

 

[Ray Roocroft]

If he becomes a arse about it get trading standards involved Ray worked twice for me.Sorry to see the problems with it get your money back buy another or one on here for sale

its a shame as its my first experience of a clio i didnt particularly want it to be tarnished this way. I was prepared for maintenance work for any of the clios i bought - fresh service, checkover, etc. What I wasn't expecting was to rebuild the car XD

Fingers crossed i get the cash back and can look at cars on here

 

[ADS_V6]

Had problems with my cup ,but hot hatches cost money to maintain,get it sorted spend a bit more get a good 1.

 

[Daz.]

Very rare on a 1*2.

Very, very rare.

I was going to say that - they don't usually just go.

 

[botfch]

How did you pay?

 

[adamlstr]

IF you do get your money back, when you next view a car; for the love of god, do the simple checks. Don't look at everything with rose tinted specs.

 

[Iain C]

The thing is you cant have champagne for cider money. Most cars at 1500 quid will be a bit iffy let alone an aging french hot hatch.
Sporty cars cost alot to run. If this is a problem there are many cheep petrol cars out there to choose from.
I don't want to sound arsey and i hope you get it sorted but it pees me off that some buy these cars for pocket money and expect to be fairly grief free then they s**t a brick and another cup gets broken for spares.

 

[Daniel]

For others, please do not think i was naive or an idiot in buying a car without actually checking EVERYTHING that I could. Ive had 2 mechanics test drive the car alongside myself and the gearbox issue has only risen its ugly head today. The coolant issue was last night, so its a very short time frame (if id have owned the car a month and not taken action id understand).

I'd suggest you maybe don't take those two chuckle brothers to your next car viewing! Lol

 

[Ray Roocroft]

How did you pay?

bank transfer

IF you do get your money back, when you next view a car; for the love of god, do the simple checks. Don't look at everything with rose tinted specs.

we did many many checks. the fact that the diff was making a noise was covered by the brake on the rear rubbing. If he knew about it, he was covering for it well.

... If this is a problem there are many cheep petrol cars out there to choose from. I don't want to sound arsey and i hope you get it sorted but it pees me off that some buy these cars for pocket money and expect to be fairly grief free then they s**t a brick and another cup gets broken for spares.

I agree, and this wasn't my qualm. How can you say that when I was servicing it, brand new brake discs and pads all round, new caliper on the rear, exhaust mount bush, driveshaft, thermostat and coolant, modifications and more all within 2 days of owning it? I fully know that they will be riddled with maintenance as i've owned everything from a 1987 mini to a mk2 toyota mr2 and MANY fix or repair daily's, but you do not buy a car for it to not be road worthy even after fixing parts, hence why its going back.

I'd suggest you maybe don't take those two chuckle brothers to your next car viewing! Lol

lol i wish they were - they spotted everything that you WOULD spot, and there was no indication to think otherwise. I guarantee that 99.9% of people even on this forum would not spot the diff, simply because the issue of the brakes rubbing made the loudest noise and the car drove fine.

 

[ilovewilly]

I think you'll probably end up getting a refund and be out of pocket for the work you had done. Think of it as a lesson and learn from it.

 

[Ray Roocroft]

Happiest ending I could have hoped for. Got a full refund and gave the car back this evening so all is well with the world. Now I'd best keep an eye out for another Clio

 

[MarkMchugh]

glad u got it sorted mate. I saw this car in the auto trader about 1-2 weeks ago, ws thinking of giving it a view but I found one in Yorkshire, all the best in your search

 

[Ray Roocroft]

glad u got it sorted mate. I saw this car in the auto trader about 1-2 weeks ago, ws thinking of giving it a view but I found one in Yorkshire, all the best in your search

Cheers mate - ironically out of the three I went to see it was the most expensive but seemed ok enough but now I definitely have learnt a lesson or two!