N/A 270bhp F4R

[MarkM]

I think you would need,

standalone engine management system
injectors
Throttle bodies
Steel rod kit
Camshafts
Solid cam follower kit
Valve spring kit
Vernier pulleys
Piston set
Cylinder head mods
Steel crank

It would need to rev to 9000rpm+?

What parts listed are availble for the F4R. Are there any engines running this kind of spec? What would the reliabilty be like?

You could get more power, probably cheaper aswell, from a turbo but an engine that revved to 9000rpm would be fun.

Also a cost estimate for the above. Dependant on management I reckon about £8k not including fitting.

 

[sh33n]

Why not just buy a Honda that can rev to 9k already? lol.

 

[Butler205]

Sounds about right.
Probably need the bottom end lightened and balanced too.

Is the F4R engine used in BTCC?

 

[graham_172]

just ring renault uk and get an ex elf racing cup engine. Or just buy a turbo scooby or something for £2-3K

 

[MarkM]

Why not just buy a Honda that can rev to 9k already? lol.

Is there one that makes 270bhp @ 9000rpm?

 

[Dash]

Why do you want 270bhp and not 265 or 275?

 

[Graham Gooch]

Actually I'd like to see that engine built by anyone.

135bhp per litre is quite good going.

Would massively overkill IMO especially the cost versus the turbo charged cost, then you have the whole gearbox can it handle that power debate etc etc.

Personally I'd change cars, wisest words ever said to me were 'If you want to go fast in a car, then buy a fast car'

 

[Damski]

I know someone with an S2k engine running around 260-270 with a pretty much stock engine apart from a custom remappable ECU from DTA, exhaust and air filter. http://www.dtafast.co.uk/ try these guys they have been very helpful from what my mate has said. He also changed to a 6 speed corvette gear box and cosworth rear diff.

 

[PYE21]

Probably be nearer 10k i think, but 'should' be do-able.

 

[sh33n]

Why not just buy a Honda that can rev to 9k already? lol.

Is there one that makes 270bhp @ 9000rpm?

Can easily be done, on a DC5 you could get that for about 1k using 2nd hand parts.

Probably similar for an S2K as well I'd imagine.

 

[MarkM]

Is there one that makes 270bhp @ 9000rpm?

Can easily be done, on a DC5 you could get that for about 1k using 2nd hand parts.

Probably similar for an S2K as well I'd imagine.

I dont know much about Honda engines. Is that the K20A? The BTCC civics ran 290bhp it doesnt sound like it comes easily though.

**Neil Brown is the mastermind behind the Honda Racing powerplant, a man Cole calls the best touring car engine builder in the UK. TOCA rules mandate that teams retain the stock head and block and place weight restrictions on engine internals. Despite this, Brown has squeezed 290 hp out of the 2.0-liter K. "It comes from head work, higher compression pistons, more aggressive cam profiling and lightweight components,"**

 

[fmp_]

The cams would have to be serisously lairy for that kind of power.

Which would then mean no idle, and certanly no hope of an MOT.

I would of thought Mark Fish would be your best bet for info and availability of parts etc.

Would be awesome tho!

 

[sh33n]

Can easily be done, on a DC5 you could get that for about 1k using 2nd hand parts.

Probably similar for an S2K as well I'd imagine.

I dont know much about Honda engines. Is that the K20A? The BTCC civics ran 290bhp it doesnt sound like it comes easily though.

**Neil Brown is the mastermind behind the Honda Racing powerplant, a man Cole calls the best touring car engine builder in the UK. TOCA rules mandate that teams retain the stock head and block and place weight restrictions on engine internals. Despite this, Brown has squeezed 290 hp out of the 2.0-liter K. "It comes from head work, higher compression pistons, more aggressive cam profiling and lightweight components,"**

In the DC5 it's a K20A yer.

K-Pro, Toda Mani, Decent Cat-Back, Cams & Decent Air Intake would see at least 260Bhp.

Anyway, I'm sure you want something more difficult, the above would be too easy

 

[Graham Gooch]

I hear the Head from a 2.4l accord is a good mod too.....

 

[MarkM]

In the DC5 it's a K20A yer.

K-Pro, Toda Mani, Decent Cat-Back, Cams & Decent Air Intake would see at least 260Bhp.

Anyway, I'm sure you want something more difficult, the above would be too easy

Not sure what Honda tuning has to do with a 270bhp F4R but thanks for the info.

 

[MarkM]

The cams would have to be serisously lairy for that kind of power.

Which would then mean no idle, and certanly no hope of an MOT.

I would of thought Mark Fish would be your best bet for info and availability of parts etc.

Would be awesome tho!

It seems like around what a BTCC car would make out of its 2.0. So it would be interesting to see the power curve and how driveable it would be at low revs.

Didnt think of the MOT thing though. Its alright if you know someone who does MOT tests I suppose

 

[ben_p]

i know someone whos building a "high spec F4R"

 

[MarkM]

i know someone whos building a "high spec F4R"

A low compression supercharged engine is another possibility. I am waiting for you to blow a couple of engines up perfecting it then when its proven maybe I will fit one to mine.

Are you using OMEX?

 

[ben_p]

NO.

looking at motec etc.. omex seem cack

 

[MarkM]

NO.

looking at motec etc.. omex seem cack

Have a look at the EFI Euro4 if your going for an expensive ECU.

 

[midge]

apd will be your best bet, at a much more affordable rate than any other company, i believe his seen 230bhp from an F7R something near that anyway

www.ap-developmemts.com

 

[Tom]

I'd run an M800, bin the VVT, Run Titan rollerbarrels (because of the space)

Im sure you could tweak the stroke to push up the CC and keep stock rev limits.
Dry sump, better breather system.

This runs 210bhp with a 26mm restrictor.
http://www.sodemo.com/uk/03-produits/moteurF3-00.htm

 

[Graham Gooch]

MoTeC?

 

[Tom]

but of course, if you want that kind of power head for the best.

 

[MarkM]

I'd run an M800, bin the VVT, Run Titan rollerbarrels (because of the space)

Im sure you could tweak the stroke to push up the CC and keep stock rev limits.
Dry sump, better breather system.

This runs 210bhp with a 26mm restrictor.
http://www.sodemo.com/uk/03-produits/moteurF3-00.htm

They dont give much away on the sodemo site about the spec.

On an NA to make big bhp its all about revs and having the cam to push the torque up at the higher revs.

I have not seen any F4Rs do anything more then higher compression with a fast road cam on a stock bottom end.

I wonder how many revs the stock crank can take. If you had cams that peaked at say 8000rpm what power would you be making and how much would the engine suffer low down.

 

[drhowser]

definately go for motec!
also if it's any use to anyone at the moment, i have an unused f4r block doing nothing? just the bores though, no crank or rods.

 

[drhowser]

if your building it from new, you should speak to frozen solid. they do cryogenic treatment for the engines of most bttc and dtm teams. sounds pretty impressive the strength gains they can get.

 

[MarkM]

if your building it from new, you should speak to frozen solid. they do cryogenic treatment for the engines of most bttc and dtm teams. sounds pretty impressive the strength gains they can get.

It seems the 270-290bhp the 2.0 BTCC engine make is done on tight restrictions.

The BTCC regulations require that the engine is based on a production engine, I understand they limit the revs to 8500rpm, single 60mm throttle restrictor, valve lift to 12mm, compression to 12:1, prohibits the use of titanium, variable valve timing, forced induction.

The cryogenic treatment thing sounds fancy got any info on it?

 

[Tom]

I'd run an M800, bin the VVT, Run Titan rollerbarrels (because of the space)

Im sure you could tweak the stroke to push up the CC and keep stock rev limits.
Dry sump, better breather system.

This runs 210bhp with a 26mm restrictor.
http://www.sodemo.com/uk/03-produits/moteurF3-00.htm

They dont give much away on the sodemo site about the spec.

On an NA to make big bhp its all about revs and having the cam to push the torque up at the higher revs.

I have not seen any F4Rs do anything more then higher compression with a fast road cam on a stock bottom end.

I wonder how many revs the stock crank can take. If you had cams that peaked at say 8000rpm what power would you be making and how much would the engine suffer low down.

I think the crank is the least of your worries!
8000rpm isnt really a big increase over stock, it would be nice to have weights of the pistons, crank and the other internal components. Then it could all be worked out.

Still think a capacity increase is a better route.

 

[MarkM]

I think the crank is the least of your worries!
8000rpm isnt really a big increase over stock, it would be nice to have weights of the pistons, crank and the other internal components. Then it could all be worked out.

Still think a capacity increase is a better route.

Peak power on stock cams is about 6500rpm though so using cams that peak at 8000rpm would make a big difference?

I thought the F4R was maxxed out as far as capacity went.

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?t=114675

 

[Tom]

Bore wise you might be right.

 

[Tom]

The other thing to consider is is there any point in striving for 270bhp, when you could improve the power delivery of a more useable output, say 220-230bhp.

For me being able to drive the thing without it driving you would be paramount.
Not to mention its potential reliability over a stupidly high output unit.

Lets not get into what gearbox would be required too!

If you want a 270bhp clio that actually stands a chance of lasting you need to go the MATT BLACK route.

 

[MarkM]

The other thing to consider is is there any point in striving for 270bhp, when you could improve the power delivery of a more useable output, say 220-230bhp.

For me being able to drive the thing without it driving you would be paramount.
Not to mention its potential reliability over a stupidly high output unit.

Lets not get into what gearbox would be required too!

If you want a 270bhp clio that actually stands a chance of lasting you need to go the MATT BLACK route.

I find it an interesting topic and I think if you can understand the limits of the various components you can better plan what route you want to take.

I doubt I will build a 270bhp NA engine but maybe a 250bhp engine is in easier reach? I started the thread for information rather then as a statement of my intentions. Although, as usual, the forum seems to lack any real technical information.

Its a good point you make about a more subtle approach. I have also thought about an LSD and shorter ratio box with lighter flywheel and balanced bottom end with ITBs. Not big power but maybe a faster more useable road car?

 

[Tom]

You could request information from sodemo, formula renault and the R3 project are the only areas ive seen a F4R tuned properly.

Nobody seems willing to spend the ££££, hence the lack of information.

 

[Butler205]

Diffs are worth getting, shame they appear to be so expensive for the clio.

Shorter or closer ratio boxes do help, but depends on whether you use the motorways much. Definitely worth it for track work.

The technical knowledge is about on the forum, but those people have to wade the thread and thread of crap to find the threads worth replying too.

 

[ja.jack]

That sounds a better idea, Mark. And you would'nt have to re-mortgage the gaff. lol

 

[drhowser]

http://www.frozensolid.co.uk/

have a chat with the guy there. he is very helpful, and sounds proper enthusiastic.
also for a lot less money than building an engine, you could have a sadev h box. try team think on here, they definately had a spare cos i was going to buy it.

 

[MarkM]

http://www.frozensolid.co.uk/

have a chat with the guy there. he is very helpful, and sounds proper enthusiastic.
also for a lot less money than building an engine, you could have a sadev h box. try team think on here, they definately had a spare cos i was going to buy it.

Thanks, I will have a look at the frozen solid thing.

Whats a sadev h box and how much do they go for?

 

[drhowser]

sadev make the boxes for the cup cars. there is either a sequential at anything up to £7k (i think) or a normal h pattern box for more like £4k.
they both have straight cut internals, and a diff as standard. the reason i was put off was because they need more maintenance, and are normally geared to top at about 120/130 and i use the car day to day.
however, you would really struggle to break one of them, and the ratios are so close that you would leave most things dead round a track.
i'm not sure what power your car makes. but mine is about the 200 mark and will already light up both wheels out of corners, and that is with track tyres! you have to ask if you need more power when you are not yet using everything you already have.
for the box, google team think and give them a call. i think he was going to sell me the box for about £2k and the driveshafts for a couple of hundred.

 

[MarkM]

sadev make the boxes for the cup cars. there is either a sequential at anything up to £7k (i think) or a normal h pattern box for more like £4k.
they both have straight cut internals, and a diff as standard. the reason i was put off was because they need more maintenance, and are normally geared to top at about 120/130 and i use the car day to day.
however, you would really struggle to break one of them, and the ratios are so close that you would leave most things dead round a track.
i'm not sure what power your car makes. but mine is about the 200 mark and will already light up both wheels out of corners, and that is with track tyres! you have to ask if you need more power when you are not yet using everything you already have.
for the box, google team think and give them a call. i think he was going to sell me the box for about £2k and the driveshafts for a couple of hundred.

I didnt know there was a non sequential version. What were the maintenace intervals like? Is it because it is a plate diff?

Wont straight cut gears be a bit to noisy?