EPAS on 172 Cup

[v16daf]

Best of luck with this one!

Thanks, hopefully I'm not that unlucky to have another faulty one ;-)

 

[dicko78]

I have just spent hours reading this thread and it looks like it's been time well spent thanks to the guys who put in the hours doing the mod's I am going to get the parts ordered to convert my car to EPAS i like the idea that I will only have the alternator and the water pump running off the engine and when I was stripping the engine out found the power steering system pipes a pain it will be nice to remove them from the engine bay.

 

[Korky]

Just a quick one, does anyone's epas setup click when doing full lock?

I have checked the rack and the column mounts and they are tight, not sure what it could be unless the column itself is worn.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Just a quick one, does anyone's epas setup click when doing full lock?

I have checked the rack and the column mounts and they are tight, not sure what it could be unless the column itself is worn.

No mine doesn't click mate at all.

 

[Cup_Phil]

No mine doesn't click either - sounds like yours has some teeth missing

 

[Korky]

Cheers guys new column and it's all sorted,

In another note, are any if you running the Renault 5 alternator bracket?

 

[GrahamS]

Korky

I was yeah. If you're wondering belt size it's a tough one and took me several different sizes. When I get home today I can let you know which one it is

 

[Korky]

Korky

I was yeah. If you're wondering belt size it's a tough one and took me several different sizes. When I get home today I can let you know which one it is

GRAZzo22

Cheers buddy

Is it this bracket you used?
http://www.gt-turbo-spares.co.uk/?page_id=26

 

[GrahamS]

I can't see that on my phone pal but I listed the part numbers in the guide I wrote.

if you look in my for sale thread at the moment there's a pic of the brackets on page 2.

 

[Korky]

I can't see that on my phone pal but I listed the part numbers in the guide I wrote.

if you look in my for sale thread at the moment there's a pic of the brackets on page 2.

Cheers mate, is that the bracket from the r5 gt turbo?

once you let me know the belt size i'll get that ordered

 

[GrahamS]

Pretty sure it is.

Got them from Adam and paid £99 or something like that.

Expect a little more belt noise from the set up as it's got some tight turns and is so short

 

[Pauleds]

So what is required and what is the total cost for all the bits to fit epas to a 172 cup?

Not on my list of priorities but I took the Clio out yesterday and think it may has some pas issues so just seeing how cheap EPA's conversion is.

 

[GrahamS]

@Korky Sorry pal, forgot to reply. I ran a 5pk830, the 5pk838 was too loose and the 5pk825 way too tight.

@Pauleds Assuming you use decent second hand parts and your original alternator set up (no A/c) you could probably do it with all the little bits as well for £180. You would need a DCI rack, epas column and control box + wiring bits.

http://www.cliosport.net/forum/showthread.php?697202-How-to-fit-EPAS-to-a-172-182

 

[cliokongen]

Hi all,


Got pointed in the direction of this very informative thread by NorthloopCup - thanks!


I've been thinking about changing the std. PAS setup on my Willy track car for a while.
But reading this thread I think the EPAS solution is so much better in many ways.
(especially from a point of getting rid of fluid, hoses and other ancillaries.
I will keep my std. PAS rack as it is virtually new (2 years old) - block of the pipes etc.


As far as I can see I need the below items:
Clio DCi/1.2 EPAS column with ECU ( 7700437048 (UK) / 7700437049 (EU) )
Clio EPAS controller incl. 60A fuse
Alternator bracket: 7700598496 / 8200031832 (got this)
Shorter belt: 6PK810-825mm (Williams)
Alternator adjuster bracket: 7700718613 (this the correct SKU?)
Big cables (neg./pos.) for EPAS power feed and other elctrical stuff (got most of it)




A few questions:
Will the 1.2 EPAS column bolt directly to the Williams mounting holes? (looks to be the same fitment)
The UK column looks similar to the EU column (with the ignition barrel on the right hand side) - can this be confirmed?
If i get a column with the ignition barrel included, a key should preferably be supplied (easier to change the barrel)?
What is the total lengt of the 1.2 EPAS column – similar to a Williams PAS column?
Not many Columns on EBAY are offered with the EPAS ECU box - did you conclude that the ECU is not coded to the EPAS motor?




Michael

 

[Cup_Phil]

I can't answer the williams specific questions I'm afraid but I'm pretty sure the ECU isn't coded to the motor - I've seen a few people now who have had to swap ecu and it hasn't caused any issues.

And yeah getting a key is ideal - I didn't and had to drill out the ignition barrel lock so I could remove it from the column. It only took 5 mins but a key would certainly have been easier.

 

[Korky]

7700718613 r5/r19/r21 alternator bracket no longer made by Renault and unavailable to order

 

[GrahamS]

cliokongen

I called up the breakers and asked specifically for the ecu to be included so not sure if it's coded. Phil's got that covered. You will also need the plug which powers the EPAS ecu so you can splice some cable onto it

Just try and get a column without a barrel.

Power cables you can work out how think they need to be using a calculator. I used 8 awg which is more than enough to take the current from my workings out.

 

[cliokongen]

@Cup_Phil: Thanks
@Korky: Which bracket should i get then? (not much to find on Ebay)
@grazo22: Can't i just butcher the wires and use some high quality 2-pole connectors? Got several lying about.


Michael


Only the more technical and Williams specific questions left!
Will the 1.2 EPAS column bolt directly to the Williams mounting holes? (looks to be the same fitment)
The UK column looks similar to the EU column (with the ignition barrel on the right hand side) - can this be confirmed?
What is the total lengt of the 1.2 EPAS column – similar to a Williams PAS column?

 

[Pauleds]

Will a dci column work with a cup rack or do I have to use a dci rack?

How many turns lock to lock is the dci rack and is it 'slower' that a cup rack?

Has anyone tried retrofitting a corsa column epas setup?

 

[Cup_Phil]

If you read the thread (I realise it's a bit long now though) I have a DCi rack on my 172 cup - it's identical turn-to-turn. But you have to make sure you get a proper DCi rack as the 1.2 16v ones are sold as being the same but they're more turns

I posted all the part numbers

Retrofitting a corsa column would be an utter pain in the ass compared to how easy a DIY installation it is to do it with Clio parts. Even the clio epas ecu has a proper mounting point on the cup.

 

[Pauleds]

I'm just trying to minimise work/cost by retaining the cup rack and doing away with the pump/pipes etc and just having the epas column

 

[Cup_Phil]

Fair enough - that can be done by looping a pipe from the input and output on the 172 cup rack - filling it with fluid.

IMO though that's very very difficult to do with the rack on the car - so you'd probably still be best lowering the subframe down and taking the rack of to fit the modified pipe and then my absolutely mint low mileage DCi rack was £40... so not much of a saving
The DCi rack weighs a LOT less than the Cup rack so I swapped them over to save front end weight.

 

[Korky]

@Cup_Phil: Thanks
@Korky: Which bracket should i get then? (not much to find on Ebay)
@grazo22: Can't i just butcher the wires and use some high quality 2-pole connectors? Got several lying about.


Michael


Only the more technical and Williams specific questions left!
Will the 1.2 EPAS column bolt directly to the Williams mounting holes? (looks to be the same fitment)
The UK column looks similar to the EU column (with the ignition barrel on the right hand side) - can this be confirmed?
What is the total lengt of the 1.2 EPAS column – similar to a Williams PAS column?

You could use a cup bracket and run a shorter belt or find a old volvo or old Renault with the bracket on 2nd hand

 

[SkidMarx]

If you read the thread (I realise it's a bit long now though) I have a DCi rack on my 172 cup - it's identical turn-to-turn. But you have to make sure you get a proper DCi rack as the 1.2 16v ones are sold as being the same but they're more turns

I posted all the part numbers

Retrofitting a corsa column would be an utter pain in the ass compared to how easy a DIY installation it is to do it with Clio parts. Even the clio epas ecu has a proper mounting point on the cup.

If you take a Dci rack with 2.7 turns, remove both track rods and remove the plastic stop between the rack and the track rod then you have a rack with 3.25 turns, So steering ratio would be the same you'd just have more lock. Id imagine the spacer is there to limit the amount of lock to stop wheels fouling the arch. Is it possible one of the racks tested didnt have those plastic stops fitted? Cant see there being rack with different ratios.

Just trying to clear it up for people looking to do it in future.

 

[Pauleds]

Fair enough - that can be done by looping a pipe from the input and output on the 172 cup rack - filling it with fluid.

IMO though that's very very difficult to do with the rack on the car - so you'd probably still be best lowering the subframe down and taking the rack of to fit the modified pipe and then my absolutely mint low mileage DCi rack was £40... so not much of a saving
The DCi rack weighs a LOT less than the Cup rack so I swapped them over to save front end weight.

As long as they are definitely the same speed rack then I don't mind the thought of fitting the dci rack but I really don't want to have a slower rack than the standard cup one.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Yes - both the cup rack and the DCi rack is 3.25turns without the spacers and 2.7 turns with the spacers

I wouldn't recommend fitting them without the spacers tbh. Why would you ever need more turns to lock?

 

[SkidMarx]

No what I mean is, Is it possible the rack you tried that had 3.25 just had the plastic stops missing? I.E if it had both track rods replaced in the past and the stops were left off.

Cant think of any logical reason why they'd have two identical racks (DCi and 1.2) with different steering ratios, thats all.

 

[Cup_Phil]

No - they were fully built racks when I tested them with inner tie rods, plastic spacers and everything fitted

It's simple - the 1.2 16v (and probably most of the rest of the non-sport clios) rack has more turns lock-to-lock which makes the wheel lighter. It's supposed to be an easy car to drive not a sporty car with quick turn-in.

Most people on here said the DCi was the same and only the cup had the "faster" rack for quicker turning but the DCi is identical to the cup.

 

[Pauleds]

Yes - both the cup rack and the DCi rack is 3.25turns without the spacers and 2.7 turns with the spacers

I wouldn't recommend fitting them without the spacers tbh. Why would you ever need more turns to lock?

It's not the turns lock to lock as such it's the speed of the rack Im interested. I want the faster turn rate.

Perhaps the rack is also used on something else which has different hubs/ steering geometry so would use the rack without the stops

 

[Cup_Phil]

Turns lock to lock = speed of the rack

This is getting way too complicated - ignore everything you've just read about stops and s**t.

The DCi and Cup racks take 2.7 turns to go from lock to lock so are QUICK - all the other clio racks take 3.25 or more so are slower. There is no difference in the amount of lock you get just the speed you get from one to another.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Fair enough - that can be done by looping a pipe from the input and output on the 172 cup rack - filling it with fluid.

You don't need to fill the rack with fluid..........if you loop the pipe over on the top of the rack and drain the original fluid out, there's enough lubrication given by the remaining oil.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Turns lock to lock = speed of the rack

Not quite mate, turns per inch of movement is the rate he means.

So if you have one rack that is 3.25 but moves the arms further than one that turns 2.7 for example, then it could still be a higher rate or same rate rack.

This is getting way too complicated - ignore everything you've just read about stops and s**t.

The DCi and Cup racks take 2.7 turns to go from lock to lock so are QUICK - all the other clio racks take 3.25 or more so are slower. There is no difference in the amount of lock you get just the speed you get from one to another.

If you are sure that ALL mk2 dci are the same rate, then that does make it simple, did you test many to come to that conclusion though?

 

[Chip-mk1]

You don't need to fill the rack with fluid..........if you loop the pipe over on the top of the rack and drain the original fluid out, there's enough lubrication given by the remaining oil.

Yes that is what James has done.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Not quite mate, turns per inch of movement is the rate he means.

So if you have one rack that is 3.25 but moves the arms further than one that turns 2.7 for example, then it could still be a higher rate or same rate rack.

Yes I know. But the racks move the same distance in both directions. Hence why the inner and outer tie rods are all the same length.
So more turns = slower rack.

If you are sure that ALL mk2 dci are the same rate, then that does make it simple, did you test many to come to that conclusion though?

No I'm not sure - I'm sure the ones with part numbers I posted are the same rate, hence why I posted the part number.
I tested half a dozen and the ones with that part number (that came from a DCi) had the right rate, all the 1.2/1.4 ones were slower.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I'm sure the ones with part numbers I posted are the same rate, hence why I posted the part number.
I tested half a dozen and the ones with that part number (that came from a DCi) had the right rate, all the 1.2/1.4 ones were slower.

Well half a dozen although not totally definitive is certainly a decent sample size

 

[Cup_Phil]

Well half a dozen although not totally definitive is certainly a decent sample size

Uh-huh. That's kinda why I spent the time going to 2 scrap yards and an afternoon at renparts trying all the racks they had on the shelves

Because Fred was convinced the DCi was identical to the 1.2 16v - and everyone was telling me they were all slower, and I really didn't want to fit a slower rack to the Clio, but I still think the looped pipe thing is a bit of a hacky way of doing it (though I know technically it's fine)

 

[Chip-mk1]

Uh-huh. That's kinda why I spent the time going to 2 scrap yards and an afternoon at renparts trying all the racks they had on the shelves

Because Fred was convinced the DCi was identical to the 1.2 16v

I cant comment on the rack, but the column is the same between the two IME. Its even the same part number on the 1.2 column I have to others have got on their DCI column, but its a DCi rack I have not a 1.2 so I cant make the same comparison.

and everyone was telling me they were all slower, and I really didn't want to fit a slower rack to the Clio, but I still think the looped pipe thing is a bit of a hacky way of doing it (though I know technically it's fine)

Yeah slower would certainly be a downgrade in my eyes too, its about right as standard once you fit a smaller wheel.
Looped rack is certainly worse than a rack designed to be used without needing a fluid chamber in it, not in a massive way, but still worse, like you say weight alone is one reason.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Yeah I'm using a 1.2 16v column&ecu on a DCi rack.

The problem with DCi racks was finding one that hadn't done 150k. The first few I tried had loads of play in them.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Yeah I'm using a 1.2 16v column&ecu on a DCi rack.

The problem with DCi racks was finding one that hadn't done 150k. The first few I tried had loads of play in them.

Yeah they tend to be high milers and only scrapped when they have totally had it.

 

[SkidMarx]

Yes I know. But the racks move the same distance in both directions. Hence why the inner and outer tie rods are all the same length.
So more turns = slower rack.



No I'm not sure - I'm sure the ones with part numbers I posted are the same rate, hence why I posted the part number.
I tested half a dozen and the ones with that part number (that came from a DCi) had the right rate, all the 1.2/1.4 ones were slower.

Thats the answer I was looking for the whole time, Just making sure you'd not tried one dodgy rack.