CoC for Clio 172 PH1 - Anyone Got One?

[WD40]

Hi,

Following on from this thread a while back: https://cliosport.net/threads/ultra-low-emission-zone-london-2020.771494/

I called Renault at the time and the woman I spoke with couldn't have been less helpful. She told me that her colleagues couldn't explain why Y Plate cars are registered as ULEZ-compliant, yet mine isn't, and that there was nothing she could do and that I should look into buying a newer car. When asked why later PH1s are compliant, she said no one in the office could explain why, and was evasive. The experience definitely put me off buying a new Renault, I can say that!

Plenty of people with other cars such as Porsches and VWs have gotten CoCs to state that their cars comply, even though they were made before Euro 4 certificates were given out. I have seen that you can apply for a Cerfificate of Conformity from Renault: https://shop.renault.co.uk/certificate-of-conformity/

Because car is from 2000, I may have to pay for the CoC.. Has anyone else done this? ULEZ stipulates that car has to have NOx below 0.08. A Ph2 has 0.036, and as the PH1 has a twin cat, maybe it is lower? Can anyone confirm NOx for the Ph1?

Any advice appreciated. I don't want to pay Renault if it's a lost cause.

Thank you in advance!

 

[Ben02]

I was going to give it a try but never got round to it. I asked about the topic on the ph1 172 facebook group not too long ago as I was curious too. I was told that early ph1s (engine code CB0M) (this can be checked on the V5) were Euro 2, while the later ph1s (CB1C) were Euro 2 with better emissions. This may well be the explanation. However, Euro 3 was introduced on the 1/1/2001 (all new registrations) so maybe CB1C engines are Euro 3. There are some Y reg ph1s that are ULEZ London compliant but then not compliant in some other LEZ zones round the country whilst some Y reg cars are compliant everywhere and it seems that all X reg cars are non-compliant everywhere.

I may be completely wrong, but this may be because TFL goes by the logic of cars have the correct engine if they are registered in the year the manufacturer says it was making compliant engines. TFL probably thinks this way because it is the EU law. As stated above EU law states that all new registrations from the 1/1/2001 had to be Euro 3 compliant. It just hasn't been fully thought through though as obviously, (in the UK at least) not all cars produced in a certain year are registered in the same year. I'd say that some councils decide which cars are compliant by looking at the individual car through the DVLA computer system which checks the engine code for that car to see if it is compliant for the location. This I think explains the discrepancies between some Y reg ph1s being compliant and some not in different parts of the country. ULEZ rules state that petrol engine cars have to meet Euro 4 emissions standards to be compliant. It seems that the CB1C was brought in to meet the Euro 3 standards of 2001 but it also meets Euro 4 standards, maybe the CB0M just doesn't meet those standards.

Here is an example of two ph1 172s:

• Y795 DTV - Probably has CB0M engine (may ask owners of both cars to check the V5s). It's ULEZ compliant in London but it's not compliant in Birmingham, Bristol or any Scottish LEZ.
• Y403 NGU - Compliant in every ULEZ zone across the country

The fact that there are Y reg cars that aren't compliant in certain areas may mean a CoC would only show that our X reg cars do not meet the regs. However this is only if the relevant data has been taken into account when ruling out the CB0M engine.

Some reasons to be hopeful:

• The type approval for Euro 3 was on the 1/1/2000 and the ph1 172 was released in 2000
• Compared to Euro 2, Euro 3 split the hydrocarbons and nitrogen oxide limits for petrol and diesel engines. To check against Euro 4 emissions standards (ULEZ petrol requirements) this data needs to be available. This could mean the necessary data required for authorities to make a decision on CB0M engines may not be immediately available and so they just go ahead and assume that the engine and therefore car is not compliant. A CoC may be able to show this data?

I have just read what you have written in the thread linked in your post. Was the Golf that the mechanic has/had registered in 2000 or earlier?

In the near future I'm going to request a CoC. You can wait to see what I get back if you'd like.

 

[Ben02]

The fact that there are Y reg cars that aren't compliant in certain areas may mean a CoC would only show that our X reg cars do not meet the regs. However this is

Reading over, this bit is irrelevant

 

[E30kev]

The ULEZ system is a joke up here.

For instance the youngest daughter drives a mk2 ph1 Clio 1.2 8v on an X plate registered in 2000.
It’s not allowed in any of the zones and the only emissions that car emits is flowers and butterflies.

Oldest daughter has a mk2 Focus ST with a 2.5 5 pot donk under the bonnet (full on yobbo mobile) that is permitted to drive anywhere.
That car emits pure and utter pain and misery everywhere it goes for comparison 🤣.

 

[WD40]

Thank you, Ben. Really appreciate your post. There is a lot to think about!

When I spoke with the woman at Renault, her attitude could only be described as condescending. The experience has put me off interacting with Renault UK full stop. She put me on hold several times to speak with colleagues. Assuming that she actually did speak to others, then either they are ignorant about how to get the car certified and it was a CBA situation (most likely IMO), or they know something that wasn't communicated to me. I was left with the impression that company policy is not to be helpful, and that [maybe] ULEZ represents a sales opportunity for the UK office...

>Golf

I am pretty sure that my friend's Golf is on a W plate (I have to visit him soon and will check). He works in the motor trade and contacted VW. He said that VW couldn't have been more helpful in their attitude (maybe a side effect of the VW emissions scandal? i.e. they want to appear as transparent as possible about this stuff, making it look as if their cars have had sensible emissions from time).

edit - I read about a guy getting a CoC for his Porsche here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=10&t=2058938&i=20

 

[Ben02]

Thank you, Ben. Really appreciate your post. There is a lot to think about!

When I spoke with the woman at Renault, her attitude could only be described as condescending. The experience has put me off interacting with Renault UK full stop. She put me on hold several times to speak with colleagues. Assuming that she actually did speak to others, then either they are ignorant about how to get the car certified and it was a CBA situation (most likely IMO), or they know something that wasn't communicated to me. I was left with the impression that company policy is not to be helpful, and that [maybe] ULEZ represents a sales opportunity for the UK office...

>Golf

I am pretty sure that my friend's Golf is on a W plate (I have to visit him soon and will check). He works in the motor trade and contacted VW. He said that VW couldn't have been more helpful in their attitude (maybe a side effect of the VW emissions scandal? i.e. they want to appear as transparent as possible about this stuff, making it look as if their cars have had sensible emissions from time).

edit - I read about a guy getting a CoC for his Porsche here: https://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/topic.asp?h=0&f=10&t=2058938&i=20

I'm a bit more hopeful now seeing that quite a few people with cars the same age or older have been successful in changing compliance status. I've just read a different PH thread and somebody mentions that their E38 B12 5.7 is ULEZ compliant...

It'd be interesting to hear what the guy with the Porsche told you. Hopefully Renault aren't too much of a pain to get a certificate out of. I remember that I actually did try to get a CoC a few months ago but part of the Renault website when applying didn't seem to work. As said in my first response, I then never got round to contacting them about it.

 

[Coops Mk1]

20 plus your old Renault, highly unlikely Renault UK or anywhere else give a f**k tbh, hence the blank reaction.

Mines a end of march 2001 Y plate and complaint for all ULEZ and LEZ country wide currently, win

 

[WD40]

Ben - below is what Hugh was kind enough to send me.

My first submission to them was via the form on their website so I don’t have a copy of the text. That was rejected on the basis that the vehicle didn’t meet the emissions standards - which was incorrect. Correspondence was then by email which is recreated below. I highlighted the relevant information on the V5 and CoC on the 2nd attempt.

Regards

Hugh





Dear Customer

Your request to register your vehicle as compliant with the Ultra Low Emission Zone has been successful.

Please open the attached file for details, or alternatively you can view this by logging into your London Road User Charging account at https://tfl.gov.uk/Ruc/Auth/Login.

If the attachment is in a PDF format you may need Adobe Acrobat Reader to read or download this attachment. If you require Adobe Acrobat Reader this is available at no cost from the Adobe website adobe.com.

You can contact us by email at ulezlondon@cclondon.com

Customer Service Representative
For and on behalf of Transport for London

Thank you for your recent correspondence received on 18 May 2023, about the Ultra Low Emission Zone (ULEZ) Vehicle Compliance.

Based on the information that you have provided we can confirm that your vehicle, registration T*** *** is subject to the ULEZ and meets the emission standards. This means you do not have to pay the ULEZ charge to travel in the zone.

IMPORTANT NOTICE

The compliance status of your vehicle for the Ultra Low Emission Zone has been calculated based on the information you provided. It is your responsibility to ensure the information you provide is accurate. Every effort is made to ensure that the information we provide you is correct at the date of our response. However, we provide no warranty as to the accuracy of the information and accept no legal liability or responsibility for its accuracy. If you are in any doubt over your vehicle's Euro emission standard, please refer to your vehicle registration document - also known as a V5C - or contact your vehicle manufacturer.

If you have any questions regarding the ULEZ, please visit our website at tfl.gov.uk/ulez or call us on 0343 222 2222 (textphone 0207 649 9123 if you have impaired hearing).

Yours sincerely

D. Milton
Contracts & Operations Manager Transport for London



Dear TFL,
It is with disappointment that I received your letter stating that my car is not ULEZ compliant.
Your website states that petrol vehicles must meet the Euro 4 NOx emissions standards to be ULEZ compliant. Multiple sources state that the Euro 4 NOx stardard is 0.080g/km.

I attach again the Porsche certificate of conformity (CoC) which on the 2nd side states the NOx emissions as 0.035g/km. This is less than the limit for Euro 4 petrol vehicles.

I also attach the V5 which states the VIN number for the car, so that the CoC can be confirmed as being for this car.

If there is a different reason that the car is not ULEZ compliant please confirm what that is.
Kind Regards
Hugh

 

[MarcB]

The UK government have no idea.

Took a 1.6 8v Turbo with no CAT and put it into the ULEZ Scottish government site and it says I can drive about fine.

Then put it into the Transport for London website and it says I cant drive anywhere unless I pay.

 

[Ben02]

Ben - below is what Hugh was kind enough to send me.

Thank you for this

 

[Ben02]

The UK government have no idea.

Took a 1.6 8v Turbo with no CAT and put it into the ULEZ Scottish government site and it says I can drive about fine.


View attachment 1674289



Then put it into the Transport for London website and it says I cant drive anywhere unless I pay.




View attachment 1674290

ULEZ London - cars which are 40 years or older are exempt

Scottish LEZ - There is an exemption for vehicles of historic interest, which would apply if a vehicle was manufactured or registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 for the first time at least 30 years ago, and the vehicle is no longer in production and has not been changed from its original state. This was on the Scottish LEZ website FAQ section

 

[MarcB]

ULEZ London - cars which are 40 years or older are exempt

Scottish LEZ - There is an exemption for vehicles of historic interest, which would apply if a vehicle was manufactured or registered under the Vehicle Excise and Registration Act 1994 for the first time at least 30 years ago, and the vehicle is no longer in production and has not been changed from its original state. This was on the Scottish LEZ website FAQ section

Either way it’s silly.
If it’s one rule for one city it should be the same for them all.

Like I say the uk / Scottish government have no idea what they are doing

 

[Ben02]

Either way it’s silly.
If it’s one rule for one city it should be the same for them all.

Like I say the uk / Scottish government have no idea what they are doing

Yeah, it's stupid. As you say, the same rules should apply for all the different zones around the country. What's worse is that quite a number of people are finding that their cars are actually compliant when they've been told that they aren't. Shouldn't be like that at all.