NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
154. Lol
ClioSport.net
Register a free account today to become a member!
Once signed in, you'll be able to participate on this site by adding your own topics and posts, as well as connect with other members through your own private inbox!
-
When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission. Read more here.
clutch damage
- Thread starter banhama
- Start date
JamesBryan
ClioSport Club Member
NorthloopCup
ClioSport Moderator
Standard final drive mate in mine.
That would be ok for me, if the car is optimised for Brands Indy and Lydden Hill, that's where it will get at least 90% of it's use.
The occasional trip to Snetterton might be a bit painful, but I'd have to live with that.
I'd love to drive Spa but I'd be touring round, I'll never do enough laps to learn the cicuit.
Just a quick update, mainly to say thanks for all the advice, I have heeded it, and once again this forum has proved itself invaluable in providing free specialist advice on a car I don't have much experience with.
The gearbox is currently with Mark having a diff service, replacement casing, and most excitingly, a 13/59 final drive.
I have a Sachs clutch ready and waiting to fit, with new bolts.
While the engine's out I've had the intake manifold vapor blasted and am currently polishing the tracts.
I've ordered a 64mm throttle body, which doesn't sound much increase over 60mm, but if my school boy 'pie are squared' is correct is almost 14% increase in intake area.
I have DEI titanium super duper lava rock exhaust wrap for the manifold and decat pipe!
I've read that these mods will gain me at least 75bhp
My bank manager ( Mrs Banhama) has politely informed me that given the above spend I don't have the budget to further indulge in throttle bodies, cams, or indeed beer for the foreseeable future.
Meantime it looks like lockdown means I'm not going to get the car back on track this year anyway.
Can't wait to get it all back together and give it a try, but will have to wait to the next Lydden trackday or race to see how it's all come together.
I'll be back to update once we can get back on track.
Many thanks all, and all the best during the next few weeks
Andy
The gearbox is currently with Mark having a diff service, replacement casing, and most excitingly, a 13/59 final drive.
I have a Sachs clutch ready and waiting to fit, with new bolts.
While the engine's out I've had the intake manifold vapor blasted and am currently polishing the tracts.
I've ordered a 64mm throttle body, which doesn't sound much increase over 60mm, but if my school boy 'pie are squared' is correct is almost 14% increase in intake area.
I have DEI titanium super duper lava rock exhaust wrap for the manifold and decat pipe!
I've read that these mods will gain me at least 75bhp
My bank manager ( Mrs Banhama) has politely informed me that given the above spend I don't have the budget to further indulge in throttle bodies, cams, or indeed beer for the foreseeable future.
Meantime it looks like lockdown means I'm not going to get the car back on track this year anyway.
Can't wait to get it all back together and give it a try, but will have to wait to the next Lydden trackday or race to see how it's all come together.
I'll be back to update once we can get back on track.
Many thanks all, and all the best during the next few weeks
Andy
Gearbox back from Mark @NorthloopCup ,having had diff service, new final drive and new casing.
Excellent service as usual, highest recommendations!
No excuse now, I've got everything I need including the precious Redline MT90
Now to slowly and carefully put it all back together..........sure beats decorating!
Excellent service as usual, highest recommendations!
No excuse now, I've got everything I need including the precious Redline MT90
Now to slowly and carefully put it all back together..........sure beats decorating!
Touring_Rob
ClioSport Club Member
Hi Andy, good to see your making progress for some reason the forum stopped sending me notifications so I've missed lots!
Have you found the reason for the repeated failure then, perhaps I'm missing something a few pages back but...
I just don't buy your driving style as being the reason for failure. I've seen and done some really horrid things to cars and have never seen clutch failure like that especially so soon after fitting the clutch.... I know people have said you were a bit harsh with changes etc but I bet you many here on track are more abusive.
Basically I think it would be an awful shame for you to put it all back together and experience another failure! Nothing much helpful in that statement I know, but the only original change you made was the flywheel before all of this kicked off.... any chance of getting a standard flywheel to measure up just to be 1000% sure its nothing to do with that?
Have you found the reason for the repeated failure then, perhaps I'm missing something a few pages back but...
I just don't buy your driving style as being the reason for failure. I've seen and done some really horrid things to cars and have never seen clutch failure like that especially so soon after fitting the clutch.... I know people have said you were a bit harsh with changes etc but I bet you many here on track are more abusive.
Basically I think it would be an awful shame for you to put it all back together and experience another failure! Nothing much helpful in that statement I know, but the only original change you made was the flywheel before all of this kicked off.... any chance of getting a standard flywheel to measure up just to be 1000% sure its nothing to do with that?
Hi Rob, It does indeed appear that I am guilty of what one manual politely describes as 'incorrect driven practice'.
The change down for the elbow at Lydden is just at too high road speed, but holding third doesn't work as you're then directly up a steep hill.
Both failures have been immediately after that corner, and having checked my notes I must admit to getting the history a bit wrong:
I hankered after an LSD, but only had it fitted after the failure of the original clutch, at which time I also had the flywheel fitted.
I always put that clutch failure down to the age of the car, but it wasn't your normal friction material wear.
We trailered the car to Snetterton, got it off the trailer and it then refused to go into gear. Sounds familiar!
Notes in my big black book show that the prior to that I had trouble getting the car into reverse, but suspected the linkage had slipped.
I tinkered with the linkage but that was fine, then changed the gear oil, but it was actually a clutch issue
I think this was the first failure due to incorrect driven practice, but it wasn't quite so drastic due to no LSD
Because I got a garage to fit the new clutch I never saw the old clutch, and don't know what the failure actually was.
( Worth keeping notes, but helps if you actually read them when you have an issue. My apologies )
Before buying the Sachs clutch I spoke at some length to Nick at PMS about the flywheel and clutch.
Reportedly there is no historic or physical reason to blame the flywheel.
We also discussed using one of my two perfectly good friction plates in a Sachs cover, but after a measure up they are both thinner from new, and clamping force could be compromised.
It seems the Sachs clutch cover up to some pretty severe abuse, but I hate the idea of fitting a stronger part just so I can carry on beating the s**t out of it. I do try to be a mechanical sympathizer.
So given the fact I'm also running out of revs in 3rd at the end of the two mini straights it made sense to fit a different final drive.
I should then be able to use 3rd mid range at the corner where I had to change down to 2nd, and still have grunt up the hill, and also have time to use 4th on the straights.
That's the plan anyway, but it will now be a while until I have a chance to test it out. If it saves the clutch and shaves a few tenths it will be money well spent.
The rest of the stuff, polished ports, bigger throttle body, wrapped exhaust is all just Covid distraction I think!
Cheers, Andy
The change down for the elbow at Lydden is just at too high road speed, but holding third doesn't work as you're then directly up a steep hill.
Both failures have been immediately after that corner, and having checked my notes I must admit to getting the history a bit wrong:
I hankered after an LSD, but only had it fitted after the failure of the original clutch, at which time I also had the flywheel fitted.
I always put that clutch failure down to the age of the car, but it wasn't your normal friction material wear.
We trailered the car to Snetterton, got it off the trailer and it then refused to go into gear. Sounds familiar!
Notes in my big black book show that the prior to that I had trouble getting the car into reverse, but suspected the linkage had slipped.
I tinkered with the linkage but that was fine, then changed the gear oil, but it was actually a clutch issue
I think this was the first failure due to incorrect driven practice, but it wasn't quite so drastic due to no LSD
Because I got a garage to fit the new clutch I never saw the old clutch, and don't know what the failure actually was.
( Worth keeping notes, but helps if you actually read them when you have an issue. My apologies )
Before buying the Sachs clutch I spoke at some length to Nick at PMS about the flywheel and clutch.
Reportedly there is no historic or physical reason to blame the flywheel.
We also discussed using one of my two perfectly good friction plates in a Sachs cover, but after a measure up they are both thinner from new, and clamping force could be compromised.
It seems the Sachs clutch cover up to some pretty severe abuse, but I hate the idea of fitting a stronger part just so I can carry on beating the s**t out of it. I do try to be a mechanical sympathizer.
So given the fact I'm also running out of revs in 3rd at the end of the two mini straights it made sense to fit a different final drive.
I should then be able to use 3rd mid range at the corner where I had to change down to 2nd, and still have grunt up the hill, and also have time to use 4th on the straights.
That's the plan anyway, but it will now be a while until I have a chance to test it out. If it saves the clutch and shaves a few tenths it will be money well spent.
The rest of the stuff, polished ports, bigger throttle body, wrapped exhaust is all just Covid distraction I think!
Cheers, Andy
Touring_Rob
ClioSport Club Member
Great stuff, sounds like you've more than done your research. Hope to bump into you at Brands next year (complete with working car)
Quick update.
Sachs Clutch fitted
Gearbox re-fitted and ready to go back into the car
I'm happy to report that having fitted everything back into the car, drip-fed the gearbox the special MT-90, and re-filled the coolant and PAS fluids I finally plucked up the courage to start it.
Bloody hell.....it all fired up okay and after bleeding coolant and PAS I tentatively drove it forward and backward and it works!
Unfortunately I can't drive it on the road so need to book a trackday to give it a proper test. Seeing as it's now doubled in value, or at least money spent, I'm not risking breaking down on her majesty's highway and having it crushed by some jobsworth.......no tax, no insurance, no MOT, no car!
One thing that is immediately noticeable is that the clutch is so much harder to depress. Think I'm going to have to go to the gym! It won't be a problem on the track, but i don't think I'd want to use it in stop-start traffic.
It makes absolute sense that a clutch that can transmit more torque would have heavier springs, and therefore be harder to release.
I was surprised because this is a 350nm clutch and I had a 1000nm clutch in the Subaru which was lighter on the pedal, but that was a hydraulic system.
So really I'm asking can anyone else with a Sachs clutch confirm that it's a lot heavier on the pedal?
I just want to eliminate the cable, which I have replaced with a new one that is supposed to be OEM, and has all the fandangly damper bits on the end. But the one I took off, which I though was OEM has none of that.
Please see pics below. Can someone confirm which is the genuine article:
New Cable
Old cable
Many thanks
Andy
Sachs Clutch fitted
Gearbox re-fitted and ready to go back into the car
I'm happy to report that having fitted everything back into the car, drip-fed the gearbox the special MT-90, and re-filled the coolant and PAS fluids I finally plucked up the courage to start it.
Bloody hell.....it all fired up okay and after bleeding coolant and PAS I tentatively drove it forward and backward and it works!
Unfortunately I can't drive it on the road so need to book a trackday to give it a proper test. Seeing as it's now doubled in value, or at least money spent, I'm not risking breaking down on her majesty's highway and having it crushed by some jobsworth.......no tax, no insurance, no MOT, no car!
One thing that is immediately noticeable is that the clutch is so much harder to depress. Think I'm going to have to go to the gym! It won't be a problem on the track, but i don't think I'd want to use it in stop-start traffic.
It makes absolute sense that a clutch that can transmit more torque would have heavier springs, and therefore be harder to release.
I was surprised because this is a 350nm clutch and I had a 1000nm clutch in the Subaru which was lighter on the pedal, but that was a hydraulic system.
So really I'm asking can anyone else with a Sachs clutch confirm that it's a lot heavier on the pedal?
I just want to eliminate the cable, which I have replaced with a new one that is supposed to be OEM, and has all the fandangly damper bits on the end. But the one I took off, which I though was OEM has none of that.
Please see pics below. Can someone confirm which is the genuine article:
New Cable
Old cable
Many thanks
Andy
JamesBryan
ClioSport Club Member
New cable doesn't look genuine, unless they've changed the design.
Renault Clio 172 182 Clutch Cable - 8200699727
Renault Clio 172 182 Clutch Cable - Renault Parts Direct - Products in stock for various models with secure payment. Genuine Renault part.
renaultpartsdirect.co.uk
JamesBryan
ClioSport Club Member
Renault Clio 172 182 Clutch Cable - 8200699727
Renault Clio 172 182 Clutch Cable - Renault Parts Direct - Products in stock for various models with secure payment. Genuine Renault part.
It appears they've changed then and he has the correct one.
Kev@KAM
ClioSport Trader
Badass Toyota
Thats not strictly true. It really depends on the company making it and whether they make the changes to alter the cover internals to suit the car. Most likely its a semi-generic cover thats used on multiple applications and drilled to the correct fitment so it does not go through specific car optimisation. I had to get my own clutches made to sort the issue to a pedal feel I was happy with.
gambit
ClioSport Club Member
182 Trophy
Andy, I'm running the same Sachs ZF clutch kit with a lightened flywheel supplied by PMS and can confirm the first time i drove it, i stalled it because i was not use to the clutch pedal as it definitely felt heavier. But over the course of a few days of daily driving it, it became good and seem to bed in nice and not that heavy at all. Therefore i think with time it will get better, or at least you become accustomed to the clutch pedal weight.
Many thanks for that first hand experience of the same set up. Very useful indeed. I won't mess about with the cable or anything else until I've had a chance to give it a good drive.
I've stretched my mind back to 2003 when I had an rx-7. New uprated clutch fitted in Reading and the drive back to Kent, including the wonderful M25 almost disabled me. But yes either the clutch got lighter with a bit of wear, or I got used to it, and after a while didn't even notice.
Cheers, and thanks for the help
Andy
After 5 x fifteen minute track day sessions, a qualifying and two races, all at the clutch-killing Lydden Hill, I think it's safe to say the clutch issue is now solved.
Many thanks to you all for your help.
I'm now trying to get to grips with the new gear ratios, but they do work well. I just have to unlearn the old muscle memory, as the shifts are now in completely different track positions.
I do have a couple of totally unrelated issues now, one is engine breathing, which I will raise in a different thread. But as far as this one goes, the Forum has proved invaluable once again.
Cheers
Andy
Many thanks to you all for your help.
I'm now trying to get to grips with the new gear ratios, but they do work well. I just have to unlearn the old muscle memory, as the shifts are now in completely different track positions.
I do have a couple of totally unrelated issues now, one is engine breathing, which I will raise in a different thread. But as far as this one goes, the Forum has proved invaluable once again.
Cheers
Andy
I think simply the change down from 3rd to 2nd at race pace was too harsh for both the LUK and Valeo clutch covers.
I applied 2 solutions at the same time, so not sure which has had the most effect, but I'm sure both have helped:
Sachs racing clutch, and
13/59 final drive, which has changed the gears used at Lydden to 3rd and 4th, rather than 2nd and 3rd.
The speed at which I can take the Elbow now sits more comfortably in the rev range of 3rd, rather than near the top of 2nd.
Also the straight gear change is a lot cleaner.
Here's a link to Race 1 video, the Elbow is the only left hander, it's still quite a hefty down shift, but now I don't have to change up on the way up the hill
( Ignore the very weird rolling start, and my bashing the limiter rather than changing up and possibly letting a BMW past, I'm ashamed of myself)
