Bad Mapping, AFR logs inside.

[Michael Woodford MST]

A customer asked me to have a look at her 438'ed Clio 182.

It had a very bad hesitation from cold start until warm. There were no fault codes, fuel pressure was checked and all live data from the sensors monitored and all was fine.

I decided to run an AFR log on the car to see if it had been Mapped correctly for the cams. Heres what I found. Even tho she had called the "mapper" who told her, without even looking at the car, the map was 100% spot on fine when she contacted them about the fault before seeing me.

Here a screen shot of the hesitation.

Purple line is AFR which hit 9.5:1 when the car starts hesitating. As soon as Lambda is warm enough and kicks in its fine.

Here a run at full throttle

Peaking 15.1:1 AFR and the richest it gets just for a split second is 13.8:1. As you can see from the log this was held at full throttle.

I reported my finding to the customer who has called the company thats Mapped the car and told them what was found. I have also give the customer a copy of the log files.

The responce from the Mapper....... Theres Nothing wrong with it. Its perfectly safe to drive hard.

 

[Chip-mk1]

When Ellen first described it to me I said it sounded like it hadnt been mapped right so I cant pretend to be surprised, but that really is epically bad that, obviously when they mapped it the car was warm so they never did the part load mapping and just relied on the lambda sensor to correct it for them.
This is why IMHO when doing a change as dramatic as cam profiles mapping really needs to be done over a couple of days period.

If she ever has the lambda sensor go wrong of course it will mean that instead of just kangarooing around for a short while until warmed up like now that it drives like that the whole way until the sensor gets changed as it will have to live on the open loop map.

Im amazed that even they would think that data log was acceptable, I know from other threads on here they tend to have a bit of a reputation on here for taking money and doing half a job, but even so Im gob smacked they didnt just say straight away to bring it back and they would sort it when faced with such black and white proof that it was that far out.
What did they suggest to her was the actual reason for the problem then if they said it definitely wasnt the map as presumably they offered an alternative explanation for the kangarooing or did they just tell her she must be imagining it? lol

15:1 AFR under full load isnt just losing power either, its risking the ring lands on the pistons too IMHO

 

[Russ_16v]

Dare I ask who mapped it......

 

[john182rs]

As above ^^^^

 

[Greeny.]

At least give us a clue where they are based?

 

[Chip-mk1]

Dare I ask who mapped it......

No one yet. Flol.

Do you mean who tried to map it but doesn't realise why they haven't succeeded?

 

[Cup_Phil]

I would have thought it better to disconnect the lambda while mapping a car surely? The lambda should only really be there to trim the map not correct for a s**t one

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

Ill leave it up to Ellen if she wishes to say.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I would have thought it better to disconnect the lambda while mapping a car surely? The lambda should only really be there to trim the map not correct for a s**t one

The problem in general with disconnecting sensors when mapping is it can then throw the Ecu onto limp home tables etc which in turn can effect the result not always ideal.
not saying specifically lambda on a Clio, just in general.

Aftermarket where you can cleanly turn off the lambda though you always do the way you are describing.

 

[Russ_16v]

I can take a good guess who's ahem, 'attempt' that was

 

[Scrooge]

Fook about!

 

[Cup_Phil]

The problem in general with disconnecting sensors when mapping is it can then throw the Ecu onto limp home tables etc which in turn can effect the result not always ideal.
not saying specifically lambda on a Clio, just in general.

Aftermarket where you can cleanly turn off the lambda though you always do the way you are describing.

Ahhh sorry hadn't realised it was standard ECU

I think that narrows down who mapped it then lol

 

[EllenA]

If you were all quick enough chip made a slip of the hand and told you all. But you were too slow!

 

[Michael Woodford MST]

Ahhh sorry hadn't realised it was standard ECU

I think that narrows down who mapped it then lol

It wasn't me! Flol!

 

[BoatNonce]

If you were all quick enough chip made a slip of the hand and told you all. But you were too slow!

And if we weren't quick enough?

 

[2Damnsly Andy]

This has TDF written all over it.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I can take a good guess who's ahem, 'attempt' that was

Agreed, If you hear it's a company who bums 438 cams massively and doesn't know a lot about engines it narrows it down to about two companies and I believe this is the VAT registered one. Lol

 

[Tim.]

Hope it gets sorted for you Ellen. Maybe you can get Mike to map it properly then send *-*** the bill?

 

[Chip-mk1]

This has TDF written all over it.

With 438 cams?

 

[jon_r]

I'm not mentioning any names but this seems very very fimiliar to what my 197 does. That was mapped by someone familiar. As soon as I can afford it it's getting checked out.

 

[2Damnsly Andy]

With 438 cams?

Hadn't read the 438 cams part.

 

[Cup_Phil]

Agreed, If you hear it's a company who bums 438 cams massively and doesn't know a lot about engines it narrows it down to about two companies and I believe this is the VAT registered one. Lol

Hahaha subtle

I still love that company for mail order, not sure I'd let them fit/map anything though

 

[2Damnsly Andy]

Got it.

 

[jon_r]

Ah, mine is someone else.

 

[john182rs]

Starts with a K yes?

 

[TimR26]

I'd get Mike to map it or take it to RS Tuning instead of letting them touch it again.

If paid by credit card get the credit card company to refund you for the mapping.

This has TDF written all over it.

It's not TDF.

 

[Russ_16v]

Agreed, If you hear it's a company who bums 438 cams massively and doesn't know a lot about engines it narrows it down to about two companies and I believe this is the VAT registered one. Lol

Great minds think alike I see mate

 

[Silent_Scone]

So where was it mapped?

This has TDF written all over it.

It really doesn't. For one I don't even think Matt will touch the standard ECU, and secondly he can actually map.

If it was K-Tec I'm not surprised, I don't understand why people still go there. He can't map for s**t.


Just to note, well done Mike for posting it up. A lot of the time companies are sort of bound not to or can't be done with the potential legal blow back. But it needs to be done. There are probably tens of dozens of tampered Clio's out there that have been mapped by the same firm which are not running healthy at all.

 

[Martin.]

If it was K-Tec I'm not surprised, I don't understand why people still go there. He can't map for s**t.

Really!? I actually was never aware of this!

 

[Cup_Phil]

It really doesn't. For one I don't even think Matt will touch the standard ECU, and secondly he can actually map.

If it was K-Tec I'm not surprised, I don't understand why people still go there. He can't map for s**t.

I don't mean this offensively but your posts are so heavily steeped in irony it's unreal

I've seen more bad maps from TDF than I have from K-Tec... it's all relative

 

[Cup_Phil]

Really!? I actually was never aware of this!

Take that with a pinch of salt Some people will just defend one or two companies to the death and slate everyone else

 

[Russ_16v]

Really!? I actually was never aware of this!

All I will say is this, do your own research on the forum mate - you will hear stories from both sides, some have had no issues, others quite large ones so it's best to have a look and form your own opinion

I hope said company can pop on and give their opinions on this.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I've seen more bad maps from TDF than I have from K-Tec... it's all relative

Not going to get into the specifics but IMHO some people are clever enough to know how to do the job properly but just sometimes cant be bothered, and others just dont even know what they are doing in the first place.

 

[john182rs]

Take that with a pinch of salt Some people will just defend one or two companies to the death and slate everyone else

If you are not on the 'IN' crowd or group then you will be slated, its been an on going problem with this forum since the dawn of time.

IF this post is about K-Tec then I personally have nothing bad to say about them, always had top quality service from them on all levels and made some cracking friends too..

I just wish that some people would realise that there are 2 sides to every story, may some one please ask the accused person/s to reply?

 

[Dan@SJM]

I don't mean this offensively but your posts are so heavily steeped in irony it's unreal

I've seen more bad maps from TDF than I have from K-Tec... it's all relative

I didn't have a map done by TDF however I've owned a car that was done by a company that used to operate up there. Detonating at 3krpm, ign map all over the place, AFR graph replicated that of a mountain range. This caused it to drop a valve at motorway speeds. When I contacted them when i heard it detonating, I was given the same response.

 

[Chip-mk1]

I just wish that some people would realise that there are 2 sides to every story, may some one please ask the accused person/s to reply?

Ellen did, and they said that the map was fine apparently.

 

[Chip-mk1]

IF this post is about K-Tec then I personally have nothing bad to say about them, always had top quality service from them on all levels and made some cracking friends too..

I bet Ellen would have said the same about her map for full throttle if it wasnt for the fact that she had this niggle with cold running and had to have it looked into as a result, happy customers doesnt always mean a job well done, sometimes it just means easily pleased customers.

 

[Russ_16v]

I didn't have a map done by TDF however I've owned a car that was done by a company that used to operate up there. Detonating at 3krpm, ign map all over the place, AFR graph replicated that of a mountain range. This caused it to drop a valve at motorway speeds. When I contacted them when i heard it detonating, I was given the same response.

I remember the state of your engine mate, was quite a mess

 

[MartinR]

Here we go again. I'm not taking anyones side but FFS lol.

 

[Chip-mk1]

Here we go again. I'm not taking anyones side but FFS lol.

Can see why Mike didnt mention names, I would assume he was hoping that this would be an educational post about what sort of things you dont want on a map on your car rather than being a slagging off thread about specific companies.