E36 3.0 ITB Race Build

[NorthloopCup]

After a successful Oulton in February, we decided to go to Cadwell Park in April. All I had to do was fit some new front pads.

View attachment 1676571

Conditions were great the next morning. The track was dry, however as you can imagine the grass was covered in dew and was still very much wet.

Late morning, I unusually locked the front left wheel at the top of Charlies, which took me on to the grass at 80mph+. There was no stopping the car then, so I knew a big impact was coming with the wall. However, what I wasn't expecting is the car to roll over...



I got out easily, and the engine was stalled before impact with the wall. The cage did its job and saved the structure of the shell, just the roof skin and upper windscreen frame that took the most damage.

View attachment 1676572

View attachment 1676573

When I got it back, I got it in the garage and stripped the front end down. It then sat for a good few months. With the roof frame still being in its original position, thanks to the cage, it just needs a new windscreen panel and skin. However, I spent a while debating what to do...

View attachment 1676574

View attachment 1676575

Towards the back end of the summer 2023 I had decided it was time to move on from the E36 platform, Ultimately the deciding factor was the value and demand of E36 M3 parts, and the running gear alone from the E36 would easily fund the purchase of what I had in mind to build next.

I stripped the shell of all parts, keeping everything I could move to a new project. I removed the windscreen, and drilled out the spot welds on the roof skin which is ready to come off. I'm replacing the windscreen panel, then see if anyone is interested in the shell. Most of the running gear went quite quickly, however I'm still sat on the engine, ITBs and various other high value parts which in time will fund the next build.

With the money sat there, it was just a waiting game for the right base car. I had decided if I am going to build a new car, I want to go "slower" on track days, or at least less hp/tonne, at least for some time. The E36 was great, but the 320hp engine just meant you were easily driving away from mates at trackdays (and many other 'normal' cars). You were esentially driving round on your own = boring.

After a couple of months wait, just before the end of 2023...

View attachment 1676576

FIN.

I know that corner very well mate. I’ve had an off in pretty much the exact same spot, only difference being I was on 2 wheels and around 10/15mph faster when I entered the arena.

And yes, it f**king hurt. 😂😂

 

[Pegasaurus Rex]

2.7, 5 Speed 👍 However I'll be running it on my EMU Black, with a few other basic mods, for now!

View attachment 1676579

Looking forward to this as a 987 owner, super keen to see what you do with the standard (s**t) AoS system and what deep/baffled sump you fit. Also are you opting for a lightened flywheel? Clutch is going to need to be done in mine next year I’d suggest so will be looking into flywheel options

 

[Touring_Rob]

Come to Anglesey this summer? few Caymans will be there.

 

[f0xy]

I know that corner very well mate. I’ve had an off in pretty much the exact same spot, only difference being I was on 2 wheels and around 10/15mph faster when I entered the arena.

And yes, it f**king hurt. 😂😂

And thats why I've never been interested in two wheels on track 😂 zero aches or bruses after the roll, but only because it was built properly 🤣

Looking forward to this as a 987 owner, super keen to see what you do with the standard (s**t) AoS system and what deep/baffled sump you fit. Also are you opting for a lightened flywheel? Clutch is going to need to be done in mine next year I’d suggest so will be looking into flywheel options

I have a few plans, ill do a post at some point. Yeah, aware of all that (more so from BMW stuff) and the remedies. I take a lot of the forum posts with a huge pinch of salt unless people have factual data to back it up on a serious track car (pressures, temps, and so on), otherwise its anyones guess and internet talk. There are a few of the US lot who do analyse the circuit side of it which is good though.

Jobs whilst its out are flywheel, LSD, 997 oil heat exchanger, secondary air pump delete, slight changes to the fuel setup, slight change to throttle body positioning and addition of various sensors. This is why I'm running it on standalone from the off though - no chance you can do that sort of stuff on the standard Bosch management!

Come to Anglesey this summer? few Caymans will be there.

Im aiming to have it something like by April-ish time. So we'll see 👍

 

[Pegasaurus Rex]

I had issues with my new AOS on track at Anglesey, road it’s been absolutely fine. But definitely had oil passing the diaphragm as the hoses had traces. I’ve been looking at potentially fitting a catch can after the AOS, or purchasing one of the motorsport setups. The deep sump makes sense, there is some real information out there around oil pressure on higher ‘g’ corners. To be honest it petrifies me, albeit those who seem to really struggle have been with semi slicks or track specific tyres. Hence me looking into options around deeper sumps. Trouble is anything ‘Porsche’ related carries a frankly daft tax on it.

 

[BIFCAIDS]

And thats why I've never been interested in two wheels on track 😂 zero aches or bruses after the roll, but only because it was built properly 🤣



I have a few plans, ill do a post at some point. Yeah, aware of all that (more so from BMW stuff) and the remedies. I take a lot of the forum posts with a huge pinch of salt unless people have factual data to back it up on a serious track car (pressures, temps, and so on), otherwise its anyones guess and internet talk. There are a few of the US lot who do analyse the circuit side of it which is good though.

Jobs whilst its out are flywheel, LSD, 997 oil heat exchanger, secondary air pump delete, slight changes to the fuel setup, slight change to throttle body positioning and addition of various sensors. This is why I'm running it on standalone from the off though - no chance you can do that sort of stuff on the standard Bosch management!



Im aiming to have it something like by April-ish time. So we'll see 👍

If @Touring_Rob is talking about the CS FEST day, that's the weekend before I get married mate 👀

 

[Touring_Rob]

If @Touring_Rob is talking about the CS FEST day, that's the weekend before I get married mate 👀

Great, so you're free that weekend too. Awesome, come!

 

[Touring_Rob]

I had issues with my new AOS on track at Anglesey, road it’s been absolutely fine. But definitely had oil passing the diaphragm as the hoses had traces. I’ve been looking at potentially fitting a catch can after the AOS, or purchasing one of the motorsport setups. The deep sump makes sense, there is some real information out there around oil pressure on higher ‘g’ corners. To be honest it petrifies me, albeit those who seem to really struggle have been with semi slicks or track specific tyres. Hence me looking into options around deeper sumps. Trouble is anything ‘Porsche’ related carries a frankly daft tax on it.

I still think an accusump is good fix and peace of mind. Loads of datalogged track sessons showing genuine results for them too.

 

[Pegasaurus Rex]

I still think an accusump is good fix and peace of mind. Loads of datalogged track sessons showing genuine results for them too.

In a track car maybe mate, but it would render the boot useless I fear

 

[BIFCAIDS]

In a track car maybe mate, but it would render the boot useless I fear

What boot? A stripped out one doesn't have a boot, never mind a standard one.

 

[Cub.]

Sorry to see the e36 bow out, but glad you weren’t hurt and in a way, best it went out doing what it did best / was built for as opposed to some engine failure / mechanical frustration.

Porsche plans sounds 👍

 

[Pegasaurus Rex]

What boot? A stripped out one doesn't have a boot, never mind a standard one.

It’s got bags of room! 😂

 

[f0xy]

I had issues with my new AOS on track at Anglesey, road it’s been absolutely fine. But definitely had oil passing the diaphragm as the hoses had traces. I’ve been looking at potentially fitting a catch can after the AOS, or purchasing one of the motorsport setups. The deep sump makes sense, there is some real information out there around oil pressure on higher ‘g’ corners. To be honest it petrifies me, albeit those who seem to really struggle have been with semi slicks or track specific tyres. Hence me looking into options around deeper sumps. Trouble is anything ‘Porsche’ related carries a frankly daft tax on it.

Yeah - well it is all relative like anything. Parts (and what people suggest) can be as cheap or expensive as they make them. Its only the same as BMW - I'm coming from the E36 where in reality it would cost some £35-40k to replicate. Yes I didn't spend that, but I'm getting a significant amount back out of it to fund this. For me its slightly different, as I'm building it for circuit use, not for the road. So my idea of what I need to do versus one being used for a bit of track and bit of road are slightly different. From the past 12 years+ of the E36, I always said next time the big bits are being done properly from the start, mainly suspension and electronics. You literally need to know what is going on with the engine when you are on its limit, and the way i want to drive it, no question.

However some of the stuff I've read on forums, and peoples suggestions, like anything are taken with a pinch of salt, as they are just repeating what other people on the internet say, with no understanding of it or hands on experience. Have you seen the thread where someone purchased the "Porsche Motorsport" AOS and cut it open, to reveal it was no different internally other than the larger open/void capacity? I did also laugh at the price people are paying for the aftermarket AOS, where they have pipes running here there and everywhere.

The principal behind the AOS on any engine is the same, however it has its good and bad points depending on where it is located, and in the M97 case its poor. But still, where there is a problem there is always a solution one way or another. See what I come up with and how it goes, but it will be going out on proper suspension and tyres from the start.

Accusump is a sticking plaster - good product, but thats all it is. You are still reliant on a closed loop control system. We've ran one without issue on an F4R in a Mk1 Clio, controlled by the standalone ECU. It works well, but it wasn't a true fix. If you have a sudden drop in oil pressure, the accusump is only going to activate if the pressure sensor can see the drop. Now on an F4R, its not so bad, as you can run the sensor straight out of the main oil gallery on the front of the block. However, if you are further away, the rest of your engine is likely f*cked before the sensor even see the drop in pressure - in the case of M97... well, the only reliable pressure take off is on the heads, the furthest point away from the oil pump and crank.

The E36 engines have their fair share of oiling issues under braking, as there is no pickup at the front of the engine, and also with high RPM, but we worked around it and had many years of solid running. Looking back all engines do really, they were never designed to be hammered round a track, you just have to work with what you have 👍

 

[Touring_Rob]

Accusump is a sticking plaster - good product, but thats all it is. You are still reliant on a closed loop control system. We've ran one without issue on an F4R in a Mk1 Clio, controlled by the standalone ECU. It works well, but it wasn't a true fix. If you have a sudden drop in oil pressure, the accusump is only going to activate if the pressure sensor can see the drop. Now on an F4R, its not so bad, as you can run the sensor straight out of the main oil gallery on the front of the block. However, if you are further away, the rest of your engine is likely f*cked before the sensor even see the drop in pressure - in the case of M97... well, the only reliable pressure take off is on the heads, the furthest point away from the oil pump and crank.

Look pretty quick to respond in the logs I've seen tbh. Will find a vid. You still lose pressure but its 10psi rather than all of it 😂 I thought the active ones were more for turning the valve off to store pressure, the pressure side of it is taken care of by a big feck of spring... standard accumulator type guff, so the delay is more likely caused by line restriction.

This is assuming they haven't released a new fancy one which turns on and off at will?

 

[Touring_Rob]

Seems the EPC version has a fancy valve rather than just working on traditional accumulator principal. I can see how they could be an additional delay from the valve opening and closing and agree its a bandaid and not a 'proper' fix... although tbh a full on proper fix is a dry sump so I'd happily take an accusump and pocket the difference.

 

[Pegasaurus Rex]

Yeah - well it is all relative like anything. Parts (and what people suggest) can be as cheap or expensive as they make them. Its only the same as BMW - I'm coming from the E36 where in reality it would cost some £35-40k to replicate. Yes I didn't spend that, but I'm getting a significant amount back out of it to fund this. For me its slightly different, as I'm building it for circuit use, not for the road. So my idea of what I need to do versus one being used for a bit of track and bit of road are slightly different. From the past 12 years+ of the E36, I always said next time the big bits are being done properly from the start, mainly suspension and electronics. You literally need to know what is going on with the engine when you are on its limit, and the way i want to drive it, no question.

However some of the stuff I've read on forums, and peoples suggestions, like anything are taken with a pinch of salt, as they are just repeating what other people on the internet say, with no understanding of it or hands on experience. Have you seen the thread where someone purchased the "Porsche Motorsport" AOS and cut it open, to reveal it was no different internally other than the larger open/void capacity? I did also laugh at the price people are paying for the aftermarket AOS, where they have pipes running here there and everywhere.

The principal behind the AOS on any engine is the same, however it has its good and bad points depending on where it is located, and in the M97 case its poor. But still, where there is a problem there is always a solution one way or another. See what I come up with and how it goes, but it will be going out on proper suspension and tyres from the start.

Accusump is a sticking plaster - good product, but thats all it is. You are still reliant on a closed loop control system. We've ran one without issue on an F4R in a Mk1 Clio, controlled by the standalone ECU. It works well, but it wasn't a true fix. If you have a sudden drop in oil pressure, the accusump is only going to activate if the pressure sensor can see the drop. Now on an F4R, its not so bad, as you can run the sensor straight out of the main oil gallery on the front of the block. However, if you are further away, the rest of your engine is likely f*cked before the sensor even see the drop in pressure - in the case of M97... well, the only reliable pressure take off is on the heads, the furthest point away from the oil pump and crank.

The E36 engines have their fair share of oiling issues under braking, as there is no pickup at the front of the engine, and also with high RPM, but we worked around it and had many years of solid running. Looking back all engines do really, they were never designed to be hammered round a track, you just have to work with what you have 👍

Please keep us updated, like I say I’m keen to see your build and solutions so I can implement some changes myself.

 

[f0xy]

Look pretty quick to respond in the logs I've seen tbh. Will find a vid. You still lose pressure but its 10psi rather than all of it 😂 I thought the active ones were more for turning the valve off to store pressure, the pressure side of it is taken care of by a big feck of spring... standard accumulator type guff, so the delay is more likely caused by line restriction.

This is assuming they haven't released a new fancy one which turns on and off at will?

Yeah, it is quick, more so when ECU controlled, however if we're talking about versus a crank spinning at 7k RPM, its incredibly slow 😂

So the normal way to run it is the 12v+ electronic valve on the end of the accusump canister. This is obviously charged on the air side to the equivelant of your peak (usually cold) oil pressure. You have that stored energy then to release down the pipe into the engine when required. You either have a pressure switch on the engine somewhere, linked to said valve, or your ECU controls it based on its oil pressure reading (psi/bar) - which is closed loop.

The former, is a fixed pressure switch, so you'll only ever get activation if the pressure drops below X.

The latter, is however complex you want to make it, as you can throw RPM, TPS and even temperature into the mix, run the calculation on the ECU side and trigger it when your conditions are met. This is what we did on the F4R. There is a sweet spot for the activation point, which is why we chose the latter, as it depends when you are seeing pressure drop, and it can vary by circuit and driving style.

The other variable in either solution is where you have the accusump, and how long the line is to your feed into the engine. This line has no oil, or very little oil in it if you lose oil pressure, so your released "charge" from the accusump rapidly drops pressure the further it has to travel before it even reaches the engine.

Here are a few logs from the Clio, you can work out where our setpoint was based on pressure, also when the air pressure side of the accusump drops and oil pressure rises. The green trace is when the ECU activated the valve on the accusump. It worked well, but still just a plaster for the F4R which has terrible oil pressure full stop.

The ultimate fix for the below engine was to delete the VVT and blank it off. It has great oil pressure since, with the sacrafice of poor low down drivability (but its a track only car and on CatCam 421).

However still like I mentioned, the M97 pressure sensor take offs are on each head, rather than in the main gallery of the block, or anywhere near the output of the oil pump (which would be more ideal). The quick fix for this is to run a higher setpoint, so it always activates sooner than it needs to, at the expense of using it more often.

 

[Touring_Rob]

Yeah, it is quick, more so when ECU controlled, however if we're talking about versus a crank spinning at 7k RPM, its incredibly slow 😂

So the normal way to run it is the 12v+ electronic valve on the end of the accusump canister. This is obviously charged on the air side to the equivelant of your peak (usually cold) oil pressure. You have that stored energy then to release down the pipe into the engine when required. You either have a pressure switch on the engine somewhere, linked to said valve, or your ECU controls it based on its oil pressure reading (psi/bar) - which is closed loop.

The former, is a fixed pressure switch, so you'll only ever get activation if the pressure drops below X.

The latter, is however complex you want to make it, as you can throw RPM, TPS and even temperature into the mix, run the calculation on the ECU side and trigger it when your conditions are met. This is what we did on the F4R. There is a sweet spot for the activation point, which is why we chose the latter, as it depends when you are seeing pressure drop, and it can vary by circuit and driving style.

The other variable in either solution is where you have the accusump, and how long the line is to your feed into the engine. This line has no oil, or very little oil in it if you lose oil pressure, so your released "charge" from the accusump rapidly drops pressure the further it has to travel before it even reaches the engine.

Here are a few logs from the Clio, you can work out where our setpoint was based on pressure, also when the air pressure side of the accusump drops and oil pressure rises. The green trace is when the ECU activated the valve on the accusump. It worked well, but still just a plaster for the F4R which has terrible oil pressure full stop.

The ultimate fix for the below engine was to delete the VVT and blank it off. It has great oil pressure since, with the sacrafice of poor low down drivability (but its a track only car and on CatCam 421).

View attachment 1676608

View attachment 1676609

However still like I mentioned, the M97 pressure sensor take offs are on each head, rather than in the main gallery of the block, or anywhere near the output of the oil pump (which would be more ideal). The quick fix for this is to run a higher setpoint, so it always activates sooner than it needs to, at the expense of using it more often.

Would be interesting to add an accelerometer into the mix. Do these have a remote oil filter?

Got to say this is still an appealing way to, if not solve the issue, help it to not cause damage due to oil pressure falling to near nothing and immediately spinning a bearing. Even at 7k having 30psi is better than nothing. Wonder if the old style without the valve might be better in some apps? Just acts as a low pass to smooth oil pressure rather than reacting to a trigger. Appreciate your comments regarding take off being in an unsuitable place.

How long until this ends up with 320bhp like the Beemer? 😂 Looking forward to seeing where you go with the car 👍

 

[Jamie86]

Sorry to see the demise of the E36. Did wonder when I saw you had the engine up for sale. New car in the garage takes the pain away a bit though.

 

[Diolum]

More searching found a Polish developer that had created a small utility to try and reverse engineer parts of the file to get some readable data from them, which sort of worked (he had made it for the E39, not E36). Everything was in German as expected, some parts abbreviated and it was no real help bar one thing - there was a section that gave multiplication factors for each sensor, two columns of them (FAKT_A and FAKT_B). This is how you would get from a whole number to a correct decimal value for a sensor. Although, the problem was there was nothing in this file which described which 'byte' of the ECUs message was for which specific sensor, so there was a lot of trial and error to come...

View attachment 1184771

Hi,

Nice work. do you still have the software to decompile the INPA ECU file to have multiplication factor and other parameters? (name ? link?)
I have some works to do on another and ECU and I have to find them by hand.
Thanks.
Diolum.