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FAO Those With Existing Safety Devices Roll Cage, Msa Eligibilty



Russ Rallye

ClioSport Club Member
Thing that worries me is most scrutineers won't bat an eyelid especially on a well prepared car but if word gets around that the specific cage is outlawed is going to become s real pain in the @rse for a lot of competitors.
Russ
 
  Clio 172 Merc ML55
Trading standards
Screenshot_2017-02-09-13-22-30.png

And conversation to SD in full, awaiting a response still
Screenshot_2017-02-09-13-22-45.png

Screenshot_2017-02-09-13-22-54.png
 

Pauleds

ClioSport Club Member
  Merc Dueliner sport
Popped to my mates earlier who has a goal rally car (cage fitted last year and logbooked), and a Polo (just built and logbooked last week) both of which have dash dodgers that come down like the clio ones, only difference being is that are a bit closer to the A pillar.
Surely this issue (if there is actually one) will affect a lot more cars than just the Clios
 

massiveCoRbyn

ClioSport Club Member
  Several
The joys of the MSA at work. Most dash dodgers don't strictly follow the MSA guidelines regarding following the A-pillar, but it is a real grey area. The problem is, if SD decided not to have the cage FIA homologated, this was always a risk.
 

loggyboy

ClioSport Club Member
Theres an easy fix to non Homologated cages gents. The wording is:
The front leg of the front rollbar or a lateral rollbar must be straight, or if it is not possible, must follow the windscreen pillars and have only one bend unless a windscreen pillar reinforcement [1.3.5(e)] is fitted.

They key to that is the first line - must be straight. Simply get a bar welded to comply with section 1.3.5 E (diagram K62)
Windscreen Pillar Reinforcement: A tube the upper end of which must be less than 100mm from the junction between the front (lateral) rollbar and the longitudinal (transversal)
member and the lower end less than 100mm from the front mounting foot of the front (lateral) rollbar,
as shown in drawing K62. The tube may be bent on condition that it is straight in side view and that the angle of the bend does not exceed 20°.
 
  Clio 172 Merc ML55
Funny that @Martin. So have I, I'll tag you @Russ Rallye too just to keep you up to date, I'm not counting my chickens just yet but things seem a little more positive
Screenshot_2017-02-10-16-41-42.png

Have tonwonder whether the words trading and standards have had anything to do with this?
 

loggyboy

ClioSport Club Member
As per the link below? before committing to such work i would be having a scrutineer double check that the below amendment would suffice
http://www.customcages.co.uk/news-room/msa-rule-changes-and-update-kits

i am not convinced that is the solution as the front leg still does not follow the windscreen pillar

The rule is it must be straight OR follow the line of the screen, so by making it straight the distance from screen is no longer relevant.
This is what the mk3 cages do.
 

scotiamr2t

ClioSport Club Member
  Mazda 2, Ph1 172
The rule is it must be straight OR follow the line of the screen, so by making it straight the distance from screen is no longer relevant.
This is what the mk3 cages do.
As per the extract below, as I understand it the cage has never complied due to not following the A pillar

The front leg of the front rollbar or a lateral rollbar must be straight, or if it is not possible, must follow the windscreen pillars and have only one bend unless a windscreen pillar reinforcement [1.3.5(e)] is fitted.
 

loggyboy

ClioSport Club Member
The front leg of the front rollbar or a lateral rollbar must be straight, or if it is not possible, must follow the windscreen pillars and have only one bend unless a windscreen pillar reinforcement [1.3.5(e)] is fitted.
If it has a homologation certificate loke shown earlier in this thread then it doesn't need to comply with blue book regs, regardless of any changes. A tested, certificated and approved cage is different to one that is built to comply with the blu book. This has come up a lot on the Locost series also in recent months. Is your cage certificated (with label and documents)?
 
  Clio 182
I still don't understand why, if the cage really suddenly won't comply anymore that they can't produce a front section to replace the existing 'non compliant' ones at the very least, supplied at a considerably discounted rate to customers with the existing cage.
As said, the rules haven't changed so they've supplied products that aren't fit for purpose!
Having shelled out top money last year I'm really unhappy that it could be money effectively chucked away.
 
  182
And this is the reason I got @Tom Johnson to build a through the dash type instead of going the SD route.
It does make sense, the closer to the a pillar, the more protection you'll have. In my eyes, it never really should have been approved?
 
  Clio 172 Merc ML55
I still don't understand why, if the cage really suddenly won't comply anymore that they can't produce a front section to replace the existing 'non compliant' ones at the very least, supplied at a considerably discounted rate to customers with the existing cage.
As said, the rules haven't changed so they've supplied products that aren't fit for purpose!
Having shelled out top money last year I'm really unhappy that it could be money effectively chucked away.

I'm hoping that this is what is currently being discussed within Safety Devices, I may well still replace mine down the line even if they do produce a compliant front section but I can at least get out competitive ASAP
 
  Clio 172 Merc ML55
If it has a homologation certificate loke shown earlier in this thread then it doesn't need to comply with blue book regs, regardless of any changes. A tested, certificated and approved cage is different to one that is built to comply with the blu book. This has come up a lot on the Locost series also in recent months. Is your cage certificated (with label and documents)?

As you referring to my post with the sticker (on red cage)? I'm a little confused as to whether it is or isn't homologated, whilst it's got the FIA sticker on the cage I've never had any paperwork with it, in fact S.D. state that any paperwork has to be bought through the MSA as they don't supply it
 

loggyboy

ClioSport Club Member
As you referring to my post with the sticker (on red cage)? I'm a little confused as to whether it is or isn't homologated, whilst it's got the FIA sticker on the cage I've never had any paperwork with it, in fact S.D. state that any paperwork has to be bought through the MSA as they don't supply it
How old is the cage? The certification rules changed in 2003. Before 2003 a manufacturer could certify their own cages, after that they had to be independently tested, so it could be a very early cage that was certified, where as after 2003 most manufacturers changed to use blue book standards as independent testing was expensive.
 
  Clio 172 Merc ML55
How old is the cage? The certification rules changed in 2003. Before 2003 a manufacturer could certify their own cages, after that they had to be independently tested, so it could be a very early cage that was certified, where as after 2003 most manufacturers changed to use blue book standards as independent testing was expensive.

Its only a year old :(, but your post answers my confusion and explains why all of this has come to light
 
  clio 182
If you were closer @Tom Johnson I'd have a cage next weekend!!

It would cost me about £250 in fuel and about 16 hours of driving to bring the car up to you, and then pick it up at a later date 😧

Don't need your car to build a cage as I have a spare shell i build them in so just a cage of bringing to be fitted.
Can fit a cage in a day if the car is stripped of carpets and trims etc and the dash top has been off before and passenger airbag removed.
 

Akay

ClioSport Club Member
  Clubman Cooper S
I can highly recommend @Tom Johnson well worth the drive, well worth the wait. Very knowledgeable bloke who has his own racer. Anyone concerned about travel I would just do it, you get it tailored to your exact requirements and fitted while you wait.
 
Don't need your car to build a cage as I have a spare shell i build them in so just a cage of bringing to be fitted.
Can fit a cage in a day if the car is stripped of carpets and trims etc and the dash top has been off before and passenger airbag removed.

Oh yeah I know mate, I've been discussing it with Graham (blue 172 cup with green cage you did)

Problem is I already have a Safety Devices rear section lol. Which complicates things, as I wanted to keep that after paying top money for it brand new.
 
  Clio 182
Cheers for the recommendation mate.
Anyone wanting a cage come speak to me :wink:

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Nice looking cages mate. What make are they? Look very similar to safety devices but obviously through the dash.....attachment brackets from rear cage to front section appear identical even so I'm guessing could be easy for you to produce the front section to go onto a safety devices cage? Might be a market for you there :)
 
  clio 182
Nice looking cages mate. What make are they? Look very similar to safety devices but obviously through the dash.....attachment brackets from rear cage to front section appear identical even so I'm guessing could be easy for you to produce the front section to go onto a safety devices cage? Might be a market for you there :smile:

I make them pal so they're my make :tongueclosed:
 
Dear All,

We have recently received correspondence from members of the ClioSport forum, and felt it worthwhile responding directly to clarify the current situation and our intentions moving forward.

Firstly, to provide a little background information, the R017 6-point bolt in roll cage was originally developed in the early 2000's in conjunction with Mark Fish Motorsport. The brief for the roll cage was to be compliant with regulations while intruding as little as possible into the existing trim and dashboard. This approach was common place at the time and followed widely accepted interpretation, specifically with regards to positioning of front legs in relation to the windscreen pillar.

However, over the past couple of years, interpretation of the regulation has changed - recently brought to the fore with the R017 cage. We are aware of issues caused to some customers, but as importantly, the potential inconvenience for others if they were to encounter issues when scrutineering during a race weekend.

As many of you will know, we have just completed the development of an alternative Mk2 Clio roll cage (R022), which is designed to MSA specification and will be Nationally Homologated to prevent any future compliance issues. The cage is designed for cars with no trim to provide an improved fit, and penetrates the dashboard to follow the windscreen profile. The roll cage includes windscreen reinforcement bars, as well as optional cross door bars, tunnel brace, lower backstays, cross diagonals and harness bars. A general assembly drawing will be added to our website soon, but in the meantime, we have uploaded a photo of the pattern for illustration purposes.

Safety Devices is a small British owned company with origins extending back to 1972, and we are grateful for the patience shown by our customers over the past few months. Having completed development of the R022 cage, we are now in a position to offer an exchange programme as outlined below:


Conditions of exchange policy:

1) The offer applies immediately to R017 roll cages purchased since January 2014, providing the customer has registered for an MSA recognised series in 2017. Details will be confirmed with the relevant series organiser.

2) The offer will remain available until the end of 2019 for customers who to have purchased R017 roll cages since January 2014 for track day use, with a view to entering an MSA recognised series at a later date. Details will be confirmed with the relevant series organiser at the time of exchange.

3) The offer will not be available to non-competition cars.

4) The exchange will apply to 'like for like' specification roll cages where possible, including front, rear and door bars. i.e. A R017 rear cage with single diagonal will be exchanged for a R022 rear cage with single diagonal. R022 cages will be powder coated Black. Removable diagonals will not be available for competition use.

5) In order to process the exchange, we will require the following details:
Customer name
Contact number
Email address
Collection address
Delivery address
Sales order number which is stamped into the footplate of the roll cage (example below)
General photos of the roll cage
Details of MSA series entered

6) The R017 roll cages must be suitably wrapped ready for courier collection (arranged by Safety Devices), or delivered directly to Safety Devices or Mark Fish Motorsport's premises. All parts of cage must be taped together (e.g. front legs, screen rails, door bars taped to rear section of cage). All sharp edges to be covered in cardboard, bubble wrap and tape. Cage to be completely wrapped in film, as no exposed metal is permitted (collection agent will not pick up if exposed metal is showing and any aborted collection costs will be charged to the customer prior to delivery of replacement). Safety Devices address to be attached to the outside of consignment, as well as a unique reference number which will be provided.

7) The R017 cage must be received at Safety Devices before the replacement R022 will be despatched. The delivery address must be suitable for accepting a pallet (aborted delivery costs will be charged to the customer prior to a redelivery attempt). Generally speaking, the cage could be lifted from the delivery vehicle with 2-3 people, but please bear in mind the driver may not be willing to participate. Alternatively, the replacement cage may be collected from Safety Devices or Mark Fish Motorsport's premises.

8) Given that the R022 roll cage is designed to be installed without trim, it will be a tighter fit in the vehicle and therefore will not be compatible with the R017 mounting positions. Removal of the R017 roll cage and installation of the R022 roll cage will be the responsibility of the customer.


It would be appreciated if anyone interested in exchanging an R017 roll cage for the R022 roll cage could get in contact with us relatively quickly, as we intend to prioritise manufacturing a batch of these cages for quick despatch.
We have nominated our Sales Manager Daniel Anderson to handle these enquiries personally, so please contact Daniel on 01638 582584 or via motorsport@safetydevices.com to discuss your specific requirements.


Yours sincerely

Aeron Lloyd
Managing Director
Safety Devices International Ltd.

Footplate stamping example  - email (18).JPG
 

Pauleds

ClioSport Club Member
  Merc Dueliner sport
This is excellent news.
Yes it will cost me a bit of time, and a bit more welding but that is far better than having to take the brunt of buying another cage too.
Thank you Aeron (and Daniel) @SafetyDevicesDaniel , I will be in contact with my details as soon as possible.
 

loggyboy

ClioSport Club Member
Seems like a sensible and professional course of action - although I certainly wouldn't be happy about the expense and hassle of exchanging.
The cage is designed for cars with no trim to provide an improved fit, and penetrates the dashboard to follow the windscreen profile. The roll cage includes windscreen reinforcement bars,
Could you confirm why SD felt the need to add the reinforcement bars as well as adjusting to suit the windscreen?
 

Pauleds

ClioSport Club Member
  Merc Dueliner sport
This is because you are only allowed 1 bend on the front leg to msa regs, unless it has the extra supports like SD have done.
 
Seems like a sensible and professional course of action - although I certainly wouldn't be happy about the expense and hassle of exchanging.
Hi loggyboy,
I appreciate the exchange system will cause inconvenience, although we will aim to make it as simple as possible. We will also be covering the transport costs, assuming there are no issues with cancelled collections/deliveries.

Could you confirm why SD felt the need to add the reinforcement bars as well as adjusting to suit the windscreen?
We included the windscreen reinforcement bars to provide additional strength, given the front legs are now at a steeper angle. Although not required by regulations in this instance, it's our standard practice for new developments.
 


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