BIGASH/FF-Racing X85 Clio Cup Racer Project

[C l a r k e y]

Sorry to see James, brings back memories for most racers I reckon. Jack kept our piston and rod as a souvenir
How many times have you taken the engine out this year?

 

[BIGASH]

Hoorah on the head and cams. It looks pretty much fooked, so that is some silver lining I suppose

Yes thankfully will go again will probably put them in a std engine next week

Bloody hell mate, was yours tagged?

For some reason I had flashbacks of Spa 2012!

No this was 80k mile old bearings etc nothing special it's had a years use with its head getting kicked in and been good as gold so very happy!

Bloody Renault engines.
Thanks for sharing James. Sorry again for the bad luck.

How quickly does the oil temp rise before it's too late? Like would you have any chance of noticing it and then turning it off. Or is it literally a matter of seconds and bang.

In 25 seconds it went from 100-125 and that was with me coasting so if I was hammering it it would of been there in 5 seconds I bet. I looked at pressure and saw it was okay didn't think to look at temperature.

A bit like the one I completely destroyed at Oulton a couple of years ago!! Nothing left at all lol.

Yeah they only want to live so long and then goodnight Vienna!

Sorry to see James, brings back memories for most racers I reckon. Jack kept our piston and rod as a souvenir
How many times have you taken the engine out this year?

Haha yes I've still got the piston and rod from last time this happened lol

I think it's been out 9 or 10 times in 2014

 

[Simon_16v]

What causes the bearings to spin then?

 

[Tony Hunter]

Crank flex.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Crank flex.

Lol and the rest tony! Sustained high rpm combined with engine harmonics that aren't suited/matched to that kind of rpm = that as the end result. That's why most race engines are balanced very accurately.
I don't think the high piston speeds help a great deal either on the f4r's to minimise the crank flex. Thats just my opinion of course, but it's also the reason I'm using a lighter 197 crank, lightweight crank pulley and 2.9kg flywheel on my engine.

 

[Tony Hunter]

I was only guessing Mark, I know feck all.

 

[NorthloopCup]

I was only guessing Mark, I know feck all.

Well you guessed right tbf mate!! Although the majority of these things are educated guesses/common sense, as you can never 100% say what happened to cause the failure as you only see the aftermath. Don't be fooled by anyone who says they know it all as they're liars as you've unfortunately found out.

I just elaborated on what you'd posted for anyone else that may have been interested.

 

[Martin.]

No this was 80k mile old bearings etc nothing special :smile: it's had a years use with its head getting kicked in and been good as gold so very happy!

It's lasted you pretty well then really hasn't it. A year of hammering on standard worn out parts.

You fitted the ARP rod bolts I'm assuming. Any reason you didn't change the big end bearings at the same time? (purely out of mechanical interest - not trying to rub any salt into any wounds) Or were you not that bothered?

 

[BIGASH]

It's lasted you pretty well then really hasn't it. A year of hammering on standard worn out parts.

You fitted the ARP rod bolts I'm assuming. Any reason you didn't change the big end bearings at the same time? (purely out of mechanical interest - not trying to rub any salt into any wounds) Or were you not that bothered? :smile:

Yes without doubt, just a shame they always seem to die this way but it seems like a feature of the engine.

Yes don’t get me wrong it has ARP bolts, High comp pistons but the bits that cause the blow up were very old. I think we did change the big ends but not the mains as the mains are originally fractional bearings and you can only get one size aftermarket so the others looked okay so not worth swapping them.

 

[Martin.]

Ok yeah makes sense

For some reason I was always under the impression you could order 3 difference sizes from Renault 😌

 

[BIGASH]

Yes you can order oversize bearings for the bearing face if you grind the crank etc but the fractional bearings from the factory are a different size on the back part of the bearings where they go into the block to allow for tooling at different stages of wear in the factory that does the blocks.

 

[Tony Hunter]

Now you have lost me lol.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Now you have lost me lol.

Who me? James? Or both! Lol

 

[Tony Hunter]

Both, of course.

 

[Nafoff]

tried following and understanding this, but having worked in mostly pictures for years i am struggling with the step-by-step blow up phase.... ha.

 

[Kenny.s]

At least Dan stayed and helped clean up :tongueout:

Thankfully for once it's pretty clear,

The centre main bearing has spun, this then blocks the hole for the oil feed to the crank and the rod on number 2 gets starved of oil and overheats (goes blue) and throws the rod when it's get to a certain temperature which is why the ARP's are blue and sheared.

All the data backs this up with a sudden increase in oil temp as it was trying to quench the overheating bearing.

No obvious sign of a pressure drop in the session to start the bearing spinning but it's a very common failure.

Solution is to tag the main bearing but if the bearing wants to still turn with enough force it will.

Head and cams have survived surprisingly :smile:

Pleased to hear that something can be salvaged.
Out of interest what sample rate are you monitoring oil pressure at?

Regards what caused it, all materials flex to some extent, thats a given, but i'm not sure I'd go along with crank flex being the reason for the bearing spinning.

I've spent a fair bit of time with Subarus and i'm sure most folk know they can be prone to bearing failures. I've read just about every weird and wonderful explanation going as to why they do beairngs in, oil starvation, block flex, crank flex, detonation, design of the oil gallaries the list goes on. The truth is, at this level of motorsport nearly all of the explanations are just best guesses.

In the Subaru scene, as time has gone on and people have learned what they can from the failures, more and more are now running proper motorsport bearings with proper motorpsort clearances and dry sump systems, needless to say it's now possible to maintain far higher levels of reliablity at quite impressive power outputs than was ever thought possible even 4-5 years ago.

My "guess" would be fatigue and or damage to the bearing surfaces as a result of repeated drops in oil pressure through starvation. When the surface of the bearing gets damaged enough that the oil film is compromised, bearing nips onto the crank and spins, tagged or not, it's still going to spin.

Be intersting to see the rest of the crank bearings, my "guess" could be totally wrong but regardless, i'd say you got pretty good service from what was essentially a standard road car engine.

 

[Da Jenser]

am not so good in english, sorry
where you buy the parts? would be interesting to know
is an option for our F4R-T (Meg- engine) conversion

Thanks in advance

Dug this out this afternoon from my spares collection. Think after the clutch issue the other week it's time to get this in and hopefully eliminate any future clutch issues. So hopefully sometime before the Birkett will pull the engine and swap it over :smile:

 

[BIGASH]

Pleased to hear that something can be salvaged.
Out of interest what sample rate are you monitoring oil pressure at?

Regards what caused it, all materials flex to some extent, thats a given, but i'm not sure I'd go along with crank flex being the reason for the bearing spinning.

I've spent a fair bit of time with Subarus and i'm sure most folk know they can be prone to bearing failures. I've read just about every weird and wonderful explanation going as to why they do beairngs in, oil starvation, block flex, crank flex, detonation, design of the oil gallaries the list goes on. The truth is, at this level of motorsport nearly all of the explanations are just best guesses.

In the Subaru scene, as time has gone on and people have learned what they can from the failures, more and more are now running proper motorsport bearings with proper motorpsort clearances and dry sump systems, needless to say it's now possible to maintain far higher levels of reliablity at quite impressive power outputs than was ever thought possible even 4-5 years ago.

My "guess" would be fatigue and or damage to the bearing surfaces as a result of repeated drops in oil pressure through starvation. When the surface of the bearing gets damaged enough that the oil film is compromised, bearing nips onto the crank and spins, tagged or not, it's still going to spin.

Be intersting to see the rest of the crank bearings, my "guess" could be totally wrong but regardless, i'd say you got pretty good service from what was essentially a standard road car engine.

Not sure on sample rate Kenny just the default by RT for oil pressure it does see the smallest of spikes

As you say it did really well for a stock bottom end and I'm happy with what I got out of it for how much it cost me

It's always a toss up to spend lots on a proper engine or just throw a used lump in once a year.

am not so good in english, sorry
where you buy the parts? would be interesting to know
is an option for our F4R-T (Meg- engine) conversion

Thanks in advance

What power and torque will it be running? I have a friend who got me the bits but I can get a price for you if you need? I think depending on your power level you would probably go 6 paddle and twin plate. What's the application? Rally, race, road?

 

[Da Jenser]

we will drive on road (germany)
sought 300hp+

we do not know whether we have a F4R730 rebuild or the meg engine
gearbox ND0 or JC5 or ... are just accumulate information

 

[BIGASH]

The end of a long and very enjoyable road but good things can’t last forever! Over the last few months I have been trying to work out the best plan moving forwards with the car. The plan was to go down the turbo and sequential route but the cost of doing so isn’t really suitable with my plans for the next few years regarding property and a few other things. Then there is the time spent on my car getting it ready and reliable and while I really enjoy it unfortunately its not productive to my working life. So I’ve made the very difficult decision to break the car. Most people break cars as they don’t enjoy them anymore which isn’t the case for me thankfully. I still love the car to bits and have had some great years with it, the friends I’ve met through it will be friends for life I’m sure. It’s time to call it a day and can look back on fond memories in the future.

Thank you to everyone on the forum over the years for the support and reading my very long updates and write up’s. The help and assistance provided by the members has been leagues above what anyone could ever imagine. Obviously not all the times have been easy but when they haven’t then there has always been help on hand to get me back out and for that I will always be grateful and won’t forget what certain people did to help me when otherwise the car would have sat there not being used.

The plan from here is to break the car this week when I will photo all the items and do a full listing of everything with prices, pictures and details. Some parts are already sold but only a select few. I have so many spares and top spec race bits so please let me know if anyone wants anything. Fortunately I’m not in a rush to part with anything so please don’t make really low offers but if you are buying a few items then I will be more than happy to look at what I can do with regards price. I will get the list done next week but if anyone is interested in the shell which will be complete with the extensive roll cage and the rear ¾ thermoformed P4P polycarb windows then please let me know. Also the other item I’m keen to sell is the car loom. This was painstakingly built to such a high spec and can include the Chassis loom, engine loom, battery, fuseboard, Dash, datalogger (If wanted) and ECU. This would literally be a plug in and go solution to get rid of the increasingly temperamental standard aged looms.

Thankfully I am not going to be leaving the Clio scene but just moving to something a little more off the shelf, a bit less time consuming and probably cheaper to run. The plan is to buy a fairly new X85 cup race car, do plenty of trackdays in the UK and select circuits in Europe, a little bit of hillclimbing/sprints and probably a bit of racing. Will be lots of fun while hopefully freeing up some money from the current car to invest in other projects.

Thanks again for everything and will start another thread when I get the next car

 

[Cub.]

Sad times bud!

But, needs must and can't wait to see the cup racer!

 

[withoutabix]

Sorry to hear its going James atleast I can say I've had a passenger lap in the little beast..

One thing for the new car you need to keep the FF-racing colour scheme alive!

 

[sonny172cup]

Sorry to be reading this mate, but it sounds like you have a plan and needs must and all that

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Sorry to see this one being broken but good luck with the new one. I assume one of the cup racers you went to see fits the bill?

 

[dmallett]

Sad times but it was going to happen!

The car has been fantastic to watch/follow from an outsiders point of view through the ups and downs.

Looking forward to your next venture

 

[not normal dan]

On wards and upwards I guess James, good luck with the new venture!

 

[BIGASH]

Thanks guys Looking forward to the new car and seeing what I can do with it!

Sorry to hear its going James atleast I can say I've had a passenger lap in the little beast..

One thing for the new car you need to keep the FF-racing colour scheme alive!

Yes the colour scheme will be staying albeit altered a little bit

Sorry to see this one being broken but good luck with the new one. I assume one of the cup racers you went to see fits the bill?

Yes just in negotiations on cost but i’m sure will get there in the end. Can’t get it until my shell has gone anyway

 

[sbridgey]

[emoji17]

 

[Ph1 Tom]

Do you foresee boost on the X85? I assume it will have a Sadev box.

 

[BIGASH]

Not to start with Tom need to have a few sensible years Yes they have an ST75

 

[NorthloopCup]

Not to start with Tom need to have a few sensible years :smile: Yes they have an ST75

I give it 6-8 months. Any advances? :grinning:

 

[shiftspark]

Wow! I never thought you would sell it but as you say life changes so good luck with the next project.
Pity I have no cash but I am sure the kids have some stashed, they will never miss it :tongueout:

 

[SharkyUK]

Good luck with the future venture, James. I've enjoyed following your thread, your ups and downs and seeing you and this car at a few trackdays / meets over the last year or two. It's a shame to see it being broken but also an exciting time to start on the next Clio-based project. I will, as ever, be following with interest! Cheers!

 

[Tony Hunter]

We may need to talk James.

 

[BIGASH]

I give it 6-8 months. Any advances? :grinning:

I'm being sensible for at least 2 years

Wow! I never thought you would sell it but as you say life changes so good luck with the next project.
Pity I have no cash but I am sure the kids have some stashed, they will never miss it :tongueout:

Yeah I always said I wouldn't but looking back that was a stupid thing for me to say, it's the right thing to do and I have such great memories so I'm happy! Just need to get it all sold.

Good luck with the future venture, James. I've enjoyed following your thread, your ups and downs and seeing you and this car at a few trackdays / meets over the last year or two. It's a shame to see it being broken but also an exciting time to start on the next Clio-based project. I will, as ever, be following with interest! Cheers!

Thanks Andy will be sorting another thread out when I get the next car!

We may need to talk James.

Anytime buddy you got my number

 

[NorthloopCup]

I'm being sensible for at least 2 years :smile: or Sophie will cut my testicles off

Added the truth in for you! Lol

 

[Adam G]

^Awaits James's comment on the extensive weight saving this may offer.😂

 

[Jamie86]

Thats just my opinion of course, but it's also the reason I'm using a lighter 197 crank, lightweight crank pulley and 2.9kg flywheel on my engine.

Are these essentially plug and play on a 1*2 engine?

As said James shame to see you move on but no doubt see you at many other races/trackdays

 

[ALD]

Gutted as I was hoping to see what the new engine would do with the head I did for you.

 

[NorthloopCup]

Are these essentially plug and play on a 1*2 engine

Yes mate.