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E36 3.0 ITB Race Build



Re: E36 v2

lol FAG :eek:

Jord, need your advice about a clutch. Mines just started slipping (FFS), so I'm trying to work out what's going to be worth changing whilst the gearbox is off. I.E. Single mass flywheel? Which clutch should I be buying? Is it worth upgrading massively? I want to start using the car on track by next year at the latest and as of this weekend it won't be a daily anymore, so drivability doesn't matter so much.
 

Danith

ClioSport Club Member
  MX5 ND2/220 Trophy
Re: E36 v2

So tempted to get an aftermarket backbox on mine. More for the idle burble - any recommendations?
 
Re: E36 v2

What bearing was it mate? I'll make a note to not use them lol.

Installed a FAG bearing on my E46, apparently BMW OEM?

It was FAG too. I think its a manufacturing fault with the inner race splitting in half, especially with the other side being fine. Going to try and change it in situ so I don't have to get the tracking redone so soon!

lol FAG :eek:

Jord, need your advice about a clutch. Mines just started slipping (FFS), so I'm trying to work out what's going to be worth changing whilst the gearbox is off. I.E. Single mass flywheel? Which clutch should I be buying? Is it worth upgrading massively? I want to start using the car on track by next year at the latest and as of this weekend it won't be a daily anymore, so drivability doesn't matter so much.

I've just got hold of an M20 flywheel (E30 325i) solid flywheel for the new engine. I'm going to be using that with an E30 325i Clutch and a larger release bearing. Flywheels are £40-50, clutch kit £70-80, release bearing £30. Needs a couple of mm taking off the back so it does not catch on the M52 block (or you can use a spacer that's used on the dual mass to avoid this). Cheap conversation really.

So tempted to get an aftermarket backbox on mine. More for the idle burble - any recommendations?

This came with an aftermarket one on it which was 'boomy' to say the least, thats why I went back to stock and changed the internals. I'd never bother with a full aftermarket system on these, stock is fine for performance. If you want noise i'd just do the backbox mod!

Also interested in solid flywheels. I've heard Fidanza are good but open to suggestions!

M20 is a good option thats used quite a lot with great success. Aftermarket are 2-3x the cost after you've got a clutch too. DW sell solid 'M3' flywheels which fit, but over £300 for the flywheel alone, then £200 for an M3 clutch. With the M20 you can just use a stock 325i clutch. If you want more clutch performance you can just get an E30 organic/paddle plate instead and still be under the cost of aftermarket..
 
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Re: E36 v2

I thought the only option was to machine the m20 flywheel, didn't realise you could use a spacer. I think you've just saved me a fortune!
Where can you source the larger release bearing from? Any particular car or an aftermarket one?
 
Re: E36 v2

E21 323i is the correct one. Its 30mm in length. Its a rip off from BMW.. But I've found a supplier for them cheaper, decent brand FEBI. Waiting back from them so I'll let you know if you want.
 
Re: E36 v2

Two possible ways of doing it, just get an M20 (E30) starter which bolts right up, £20-30 on eBay, or get a broken M20 one and swap the cog onto the E36 starter. Both options work :)
 
Re: E36 v2

Will keep this updated with how I get on with release bearing. They came on E21 323i, Pre 92 E30 323i and a number of others. Febi and various other parts suppliers have the right one, its just finding the right one in stock at the moment. The stock DMF has a steel spacer on the back of it between the crank and flywheel, that's reusable to mean you don't need to machine the flywheel. I could get the flywheel machined pretty easily but its balancing thats the difficult bit, easier to find another way as above.
 
Re: E36 v2

That's the one thing that was putting me off as I don't know anywhere/anyone that could machine it for me. Plus it's already quite a bit lighter than a DMF so it'd make no odds IMO. Look forward to seeing progress on it!
 
Re: E36 v2

Yeah, I weighed this one the other day and its only a shade over 7kg. There are two versions of the E30 flywheel, the early version does not have the lip on the back, and clears without machining or the spacer - people know this and sell them for more though! Later one and spacer works fine too. Important to get bolts with the flywheel too as they are not cheap from BMW. Locktite with correct torque and they will go again
 
Re: E36 v2

That's not bad then. They won't be fatigued or anything? I'm guessing you need all the same stuff from the same car too? I.e. starter/flywheel/release bearing from the same age car?
 
Re: E36 v2

Release bearing needs to be new, the 95% of E30 ones are 23mm I think so 7mm too short. Need to be 30mm.

The bolts are fine if used with locktite and correct torque. You could replace them, depends how much money you want to spend I guess. Make sure the flywheel comes with the clutch cover plate bolts too (hold the clutch to the flywheel).

Starter can be from any M20 engine'd E30, same for the flywheel. Anything with an M20 is good!
 
Re: E36 v2

I wanted to fit the new bearing without taking the trailing arm off the car, as the tracking would be out and I didn't really want to be getting it re-done so soon. Decided to try the classic DIY method. I had removed the old bearing race previously, so cleaned it up ready for the new bearing..

IMG_9621_zps8f52b5a9.jpg


Take a couple of metal plates, threaded bar and a few nuts - wind the bearing in..

IMG_9623_zps2bff174e.jpg


Fit the circlip and the new bearing is done..

IMG_9625_zps8393b680.jpg


Used the same method to pull the stub into the bearing..

IMG_9626_zps4668f58e.jpg


Driveshaft re-fitted along with a new hub nut, job done.

IMG_9627_zpsf25a1803.jpg


Another collection was made yesterday, lots more powdercoated goodness..

IMG_20140118_110617_zps2a6bf96e.jpg


I had a few more bits done (orange) as I never got round to sorting them with the last lot. I've yet to fit the front subframe, but now have the rest to go with it..

IMG_9628_zps3c3f4c7f.jpg


Also picked up a bargin set of balljoints for the wishbones on eBay that were unused from a project..

IMG_9636_zps155df051.jpg


Had a spare set of calipers included, and got a set of new seals to rebuild them..

IMG_9630_zps692328d0.jpg


IMG_9633_zps83fefcbc.jpg


IMG_9637_zps1419b523.jpg


Various other bits were also included but are mostly just spares. Will get round to getting the above sorted in the coming weeks hopefully :boring:
 

Danith

ClioSport Club Member
  MX5 ND2/220 Trophy
Re: E36 v2

There's no way I could do that reweld on the backbox! Any vids of the sound?

Greedy with 2 x braces! Sell me one!

Did you flog the original rims by the way? I'm after a pair of the 8.5 rears.
 
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Re: E36 v2

Il get some vids up at some point, its much better now its had some time to bed in.

Unfortunately not both mine, the red stuff is Whiteley's!

Yeah, they went early on. They were all the same width though, not a 'proper' set :sleepy:
 

Danith

ClioSport Club Member
  MX5 ND2/220 Trophy
Re: E36 v2

Ah right, yeah same here. Mine are like new but 7.5 all round :( in fact I've got 6 of the bloody things, he threw in an unused pair but they're 7.5
 
Re: E36 v2

So the DMF/Release bearing now has some sort of issue, lovely pulsing feedback through the pedal when hot. Going to pull the box off next weekend and fit a SMF I have which was going to wait for the new engine. Joy!
 
Re: E36 v2

By the looks of it access is pretty good - exhaust is the main stumbling block (manifold>downpipe bolts are always siezed) but I've got a solution for that when it comes to it. Better to do it now rather than later, never really trusted it fully with the miles its on. Heading to Cadwell Park at the end of March for the first one of 2014, and the current setup isn't going to last until then. New engine will probably go in after that :clown:
 
Re: E36 v2

Well before the flywheel/clutch could be attempted I wanted to check if the exhaust would come undone from the manifolds at the flanges. These have probably never been removed on most of these E36s, and my previous one was a f*cking nightmare - with studs spinning/nuts rounding/snapping, had the lot.

I was hoping for better news with this one, as long as this would come off the flywheel/clutch job would be much easier as the exhaust would just come off. The centre section has to be removed to get the gearbox off the engine.

Heated the nuts up and 5 of the 6 came off with ease, just one stud snapped..

IMG_9640_zps0d49a2bc.jpg


Access is easy with minimal fuss when they undo like that. If you have to start cutting/drilling broken studs its an absolute nightmare as there is no room to work at all!

With this taking so little time, I decided to try and fit the M3 Evo exhaust manifolds I got a couple of months back. Picked them up cheap as some muppet had cut one of the flanges off at some point, so they didn't command anywhere near the price tag of what people usually sell them for. Its also important to get the Evo ones as the lambda ports are in the correct place for putting them on a 328, whereas the 3.0 ones have the lambdas in the centre section. Dropped on lucky with the right ones.

IMG_9643_zpsa0b8ffa1.jpg


I was a bit reluctant to start removing the manifolds as I had read about people snapping studs, etc. I already have a set of 24 studs and nuts for the new engine (new E90> style), but didn't want to use them on this old engine - so I would be re-using the studs if all went well.

The standard 328 manifolds were removed in about 20 minutes, with most of the studs winding out along with the nuts. Really easy to get to all 24 nuts with everything still in place. Front bank off..

IMG_9641_zps7de96d95.jpg


IMG_9642_zps6d681f42.jpg


I had also read this job had taken some people 2-3 days to complete, and how much of a nightmare access was with fitting the M3 manifolds on with the engine in. I decided to remove the steering column linkage to make life a little easier, as there is no chance the manifolds would go in with it still there. Simple as sliding the assembly down on the splines, then up off the rack. Makes it easier if you unbolt the rack and move that forward too..

IMG_9644_zps6682135d.jpg


Anyone who has seen one of these on a BMW before will know they have a rubber part in the middle, under the heatshield. They wear and most are likely on the original item, giving a bit of play in the steering (along with a bit of vibration damping I guess). I managed to get a solid replacement 'kit' from a lad on another forum, so this was a good time to fit it. More on that lower down.

With enough access we offered up the M3 manifolds to measure what sort of piece needed welding on to replace the flange.

IMG_9645_zps77d258ba.jpg


Quite a tight fit to get in even with the column linkage off, both manifolds have to be lifted up at the same time. Luckily I had quite a bit of 2" pipe in various shapes spare, so measured up, cut a section and then welded a piece on on with a new flange..

IMG_9646_zps020fc396.jpg


Some difference to the stock 328i items indeed. Obviously now the standard centre section is no use, as it usually goes upwards to join the short manifolds, so it needs shortening also.


Before doing this we fitted the manifold to the car and got on with putting all the nuts on. Typical that at this point there was sideways rain, hailstone, wind, the lot. Having started it I needed it finished so the job went on, even in the grim weather this country seems to always produce.....

...many hours later :sleepy: ...

Well the claims of it being a bad job with the engine in are correct - more like what an absolute nightmare of a job, and I rarely think much is difficult! Getting all 6 individual gaskets on is the first trick, then being able to tighten all 24 nuts up with limited access took a vast array of different tools to say the least. Many times during this I did wonder why I had attempted to change it before the new engine goes in. Got there in the end though - sorry to say a complete newcomer would have no chance, and it actually would take days not hours lol.

IMG_9649_zps9a85726d.jpg


IMG_9652_zps238bb13c.jpg


I also drilled out the standard rubber on the steering column linkage, bolted together the solid part and put it back on, works well..

IMG_9647_zps391ff2e1.jpg


IMG_9654_zpsf302da98.jpg


At this point we gave up for the day, cold, wet and tempers tested. I have already modified the centre section to meet with the M3 manifolds, just needs fitting in daylight, so I will update the final bits of the swap tomorrow, hopefully with a video included.
 
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welshname

ClioSport Club Member
Re: E36 v2

Good work as always. Seems like a pig of a job to do.

I know how you feel about the weather too. I've currently got my car on axle stands with half a subframe off in the middle of changing the clutch.

Fingers crossed for decent weather tomorrow.
 
Re: E36 v2

Good work as always. Seems like a pig of a job to do.

I know how you feel about the weather too. I've currently got my car on axle stands with half a subframe off in the middle of changing the clutch.

Fingers crossed for decent weather tomorrow.

No such luck, pretty much pi**ed it down all day here lol.

The centre section now looks like this, which is the same as a stock M3 with two flanges rather than going right up by the engine..

IMG_9656_zps5656fb53.jpg


Its functional, but I'm not really happy with how it fits on the car even if it is the way a standard M3 is. I've got a few ideas to change it when the engine eventually comes out, but it will work for now. Manifold is a good upgrade, more top end torque for sure (4k+), better throttle response and a completely different sound.



I scanned the car with INPA after fitting to find lambda #1 pre-heater has stopped working. Swapped the two lambda connectors over and then #2 recorded a fault. From that I know which one is faulty, so will have to get them swapped at some point, Bosch 4 wire items are cheap enough. They did look to be the originals when I put them into the M3 manifolds.

Fitted some ambers to the front and sides last week also for a bit of a change..

IMG_9660_zpsb95e08bf.jpg
 
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Re: E36 v2

Decent update, glad you got that manifold fitted, sounded a right pain to do. Are you now using this as your daily/track car as you got rid of the E46 didn't you?
 
Re: E36 v2

Decent update, glad you got that manifold fitted, sounded a right pain to do. Are you now using this as your daily/track car as you got rid of the E46 didn't you?

E46 is long gone, it was going to need a DMF/Clutch before too long (started to rattle). At the moment yeah, but its getting to the stage where all the various small bits that have not been replaced are playing up. I've been on the lookout for a diesel since the E46 went, but just not got round to getting anything yet - when I do il more than likely fit the other seats and keep it like that. Hopefully get some good use out of it this year including a day at Spa.
 
  DC2 TypeR / E36 328i
Re: E36 v2

Made my mate sign up to BMWowner last night just to read your thread Jord, inspiration stuff to say the least.

Feel like pretending to go for a s**t at work just so I can listen to that exhaust video. In fact I will, brb.

I really need to get INPA setup...
 
Re: E36 v2

Made my mate sign up to BMWowner last night just to read your thread Jord, inspiration stuff to say the least.

Feel like pretending to go for a s**t at work just so I can listen to that exhaust video. In fact I will, brb.

I really need to get INPA setup...

LOL. Il get some sorted with the GoPro sometime, it has changed completely.


A day or so later, I thought something wasn't right, engine felt flat when warmed up and fuel consumption was higher..

inpa-lambda-2_zps997a3083.png


inpa-lambda-1_zpsa03dfd9b.png


Must have disturbed one of them when swapping between manifolds :rolleyes: They did look very old either way. Ordered two Bosch replacements which came a couple of days ago, just need to swap them over. With the release bearing now louder than the engine with the clutch depressed, I think the sooner its sorted the better. Which leads onto this weekends job..

IMG_9664_zps57d7a65a.jpg


That's all the bits now collected ready to swap. As mentioned previously from reading apparently you can use the spacer from the back of the DMF to keep it away from the sump, but I didn't want to risk taking it all apart to find it would not fit - so the M20 flywheel has been machined and balanced to remove the lip on the back which usually catches the sump. Its down to 5.5kg.

IMG_9665_zps5fd10eb4.jpg


IMG_9667_zps6e3dc085.jpg


For anyone that finds this looking for what is required parts wise, here are the details:

M20 Flywheel - £50 (From any E30, or M20 engine which uses a single mass flywheel)
M20 Clutch Kit, E30 325i - £97 (Sachs is preferred for quality)
M20 Starter Motor - £20 (From any manual or automatic 6 cylinder E30, or M20 engine)
6 x Clutch Pressure Plate Bolts - £0.68ea (BMW #07119906045)
8 x Flywheel Bolts - £2.68ea (BMW #11227805885)
Shim/Spreader Plate (BMW #11221710038)

Ideally look to get the spreader plate with the flywheel (Most come with it), this goes between the flywheel and bolts to spread the load. Also its recommended to replace the pressure plate and flywheel bolts as listed above. Now until Saturday..
:sleepy:
 
Re: E36 v2

Hope it all goes smoothly mate, did you bottom out the release bearing?

Which one? Not sure whats happened to the one on the car, it just got noisy and quick, then the pedal started getting weird with the clutch depressed. No noise when driving, just when you are on the pedal..
 
Re: E36 v2

Will be on the phone to BMW in the morning. As said, looking forward to seeing your progress this weekend! Interested to see the weight of mine when it arrives, supposedly had the same work done as yours. We'll see...
 
  DC2 TypeR / E36 328i
Re: E36 v2

Do I see INPA on a Macbook there mate?

Couldn't sort me out with the software could you? I have a VAG KKL Cable from my Ibiza, I believe these can be modified for the E36 INPA interface. Is that what you did?
 


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